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May 26, 2026
Dan Braithwaite – From Aha Moments to Building the Product He Always Wanted
Dan Braithwaite – From Aha Moments to Building the Product He Always Wanted
00:00
57:45
Transcript
0:00
In this episode, we meet Dan Braithwaite, customer education leader, SEDMA board member, and now a product builder. Uh, we chat about his journey into learning Maybe it's just something you're looking at
0:10
football, soccer managers and thinking, "Oh my God, like, these, these people are cool. I wanna, I wanna do something similar to that."
0:15
how he thinks about learning measurement So I think when it comes to measurement, yeah, it is a bit of overwhelm, but the practical thing is what does your company actually care about?
0:24
and how AI is helping him build the product he wished he could have had This has been something that
0:30
I guess has been in the back of my mind for a long time, but never, [sighs] never really the ability to, to do it before.
0:36
And I think this, this new wave of AI technologies, vibe coding, it's kind of never been really easier to start to create some product.
0:45
What I'd like to start with is, uh, for you to put the audience through what you think they should know about you and your journey in learning. It's been, I suppose, a, an interesting journey.
0:57
I think a, a lot of people I tend to chat with don't have the same natural route into wherever they land. Um, I, I started...
1:04
I guess my route to, to learning came through initially my retail days, which is where I started my career, uh, when I was, when I was a lot younger.
1:12
Um, I did enjoy presenting quite a lot during those experiences as a, as a retail manager.
1:17
Kind of moved into a role with Apple, which really exposed that quite a lot, with a lot of different workshops, a lot of internal training programs I was involved with, um, and just constantly talking about software and products all the time, which was, uh, probably the main catalyst at that point of like, right, really enjoy doing this stuff.
1:35
Like, we, we kind of need to turn this into a career at some stage. Uh, which is what then led me to MediaOcean and where I've been doing that for almost 10 years now.
1:45
Growing, growing a, a team, growing our programs, and trying to make things as amazing as they can be. Um, so that's kind of what's led me to where I am right now, and
1:56
perhaps moving on to new, new f- new products that may be hitting the market soon. Who knows? [laughs] Nice. So what was it about learning? As you say- Yes... many of us get into it accidentally.
2:07
I mean, mine was- Yeah... I put my hand up to volunteer for something that was a training session for people. I'd never done training session before at 19, and go do this training session. Great.
2:17
What was it about learning that pulled you in and kept you in for the next many years?
2:24
I think there's just, there's a reaction that you see, particularly when you're doing something live and, and you're facilitating training.
2:31
There's the reaction that you get from the audience, and there is a, it's a bit of a, a thing with it. Like, it, it feels really good.
2:36
It feels really good to impart knowledge onto somebody that they can then take away and use and have some success with.
2:42
But just, just to see those aha moments, um, kind of used to see them from time to time in retail when we'd be, you know, maybe doing, doing a launch of a new thing and I have to present that to everybody, and everyone's kind of slowly getting it, and it's like, wow, amazing, we're gonna go and do some really cool stuff with this.
2:59
But particularly when you've got, like, Apple and a suite of comprehensive products, which some can be, you know, more, more complicated than others, and just to see these little moments where people get it and they, and it twigs for them, and you're just like, "Wow, that, that's..."
3:12
And you, and you can, like, physically see it in somebody and, and that is quite, quite a buzz if you're an instructor or a, you know, uh, with this type of stuff.
3:19
So I think that was, that was the thing of, like, that, that feeling of transferring information to somebody and seeing them ignite off of that, that moment was really the kicker of like, "Okay, I need to do this more."
3:32
Yeah. Yeah, I can resonate with that. I think, uh, um, it's fun. It's fun standing- Yeah...
3:37
in front of a bunch of people trying to, as you say, get those aha moments, but also interacting in person as it used to be, um- Yeah...
3:45
uh, a lot, getting to know different people, getting to know their different backgrounds and their challenges.
3:49
I, I always enjoyed that, uh, whether it be one person that you're handholding through or 700 people at a conference or, uh, something. I think you, you get that same kind of buzz out of it.
3:59
It's a bit of an adrenaline rush, I guess. Um- Definitely is. Definitely is. Yeah. So- I kind of, I, I sort of mentioned to some people when they, they talk to me about it, it's a bit like being on stage.
4:08
It's like- Yeah... that gets the same sort of buzz, I think, the people that do those types of roles feel of, like, being in front of people and feeling that it's- Yeah... yeah, exciting. Making a fool of yourself.
4:17
That's, that's what I always said. Many times. I'd st- stand up on stage and make a fool of myself. That's, that's basically what I did get paid to do. Yeah. And many dad jokes as well along the way.
4:26
[laughs] Many bad dad jokes. Yeah. Um, many very bad coffees in weird and wonderful locations around the world. Absolutely. As part of the experience. I mean, for me, travel was a big part of it as well. Mm-hmm.
4:38
Getting to travel around with the in-person learning to every country around the world, uh, pretty much was, was part of the fun as well.
4:46
Obviously we're not really in that kind of realm of in-person learning so much these days, and I know you at MediaOcean, you're still doing a lot of virtual instructor-led training, and I think for me, COVID kind of killed off a lot of the in-person training way back when.
5:02
Yeah. We figured out there was a different way to do it. Um, how have you negotiated that change from being the person at the front of the room to not being the person at the front of the room anymore?
5:11
And the, uh, you're now on the other side of a screen or in your profession today you're managing- Yeah... leading a team of people that are doing that. Yeah, I mean, 'cause yeah, COVID was, was such an interesting time.
5:24
I think where we were at at the time was we were fortunate enough to be maybe slightly ahead of the COVID curve because we'd already started to do a degree of virtual live training sessions already at that point.
5:39
We'd launched, or we, we acquired a company at MediaOcean that, um, had a global presence and regions that perhaps wasn't cost effective to go and travel to, to present an instructor there to, to deliver training.
5:52
Um, so we kind of started that towards the, I wanna say the tail end of 2018.
5:56
Around that time we were starting to use products to deliver virtual instructor-led training, um, and, and products that would allow us to be hands-on with the, with the functions as well.
6:06
So not just using a, a Teams or a Zoom as much as those products do obviously have require, uh, you know, good requirements for different circumstances. Um, when teaching product, we really wanted it to be hands-on.
6:17
So weInherited a product that we, we started to use.
6:21
Um, and so there w- there was a process in that time of, of, yeah, being on camera and understanding what that kind of feels like and presenting, and if everyone's on mute, just being a bit awkward for a moment of like, "Did they get it?"
6:34
'Cause when you're in a room of people and you can see, you can... You know it, and you can get that immediate feedback. But when you, when you can't see them, you just don't know.
6:42
And then trying to explore how you can make the experience more dynamic and more engaging, not just for them, but for you as well, that you, you know, and you can start to get some, you know, tells on how it's going and whether people are actually picking things up or not picking things up, and whether they are enjoying the experience or not.
7:00
So I think we had probably a good year and a half or so of kind of figuring things out, but at a, obviously much reduced capacity to still what was the going here, there and everywhere type of face-to-face training.
7:14
COVID came around, we then did the big switch, and never, never really switched back because it's just obviously so much more cost-effective for, for many, many reasons to do, do it online.
7:26
Um, you can train more, you can, you can offer more availability to your customers.
7:30
It's not so taxing to spend, you know, hours in an airport and then [chuckles] days off site and to only perhaps do a couple of training sessions when really you could have maybe done, you know, a, a dozen of sessions.
7:41
So it just never really made sense necessarily to go back to those ways.
7:46
And just then it's, then it was a kind of evolution over time of, of, of at times maybe getting things a little bit wrong, which I think you, you have to do in every aspect is, is make some mistakes and figure out what works and what doesn't work.
7:59
Um, we certainly changed platforms, uh, the vendors that we were using for, for delivery and the ways in which we scheduled and handled the entire thing.
8:09
It was kind of constant iteration, um, to get to kind of where it, where it is now. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of the, the media ocea- media ocean side. For you personally as a- Mm... trainer at that point- Yeah...
8:24
you mentioned a couple of skills that you had to add. What, what other skills were crucial for you to, or, or different for you to learn?
8:31
'Cause obviously it's a big, it's a very different outcome you're trying to achieve in a different medium. How did, how did you deal with that? Yeah. I... You have to get used to silence.
8:44
I think that's one of the, the things that comes quite quickly and, you know, we... You, you want everybody with their microphones turned on and talking to you and interacting throughout.
8:54
Um, you want ideally everyone with their cameras on so you can see that they're there and you've got the faces and you can start to put fa- names to faces and stuff.
9:02
That doesn't suit everybody in their circumstances and so it's kind of getting used to that quite quickly is unusual.
9:08
Um, starting to, again, if you're in a physical classroom space and you're teaching somebody how to use something and you check on them and you can see that they're ca- they're moving along with it, that's great.
9:20
When you're a virtual setting, if they're not moving along with it, then are they even there? Or, or is what's going on?
9:26
[laughs] And so I think having to become comfortable with that and, and find ways to, you know, re-engage people, you know, you
9:35
don't necessarily want to name call people in training, but sometimes you might want to be like, "Oh, hey, such and such, how are you getting on? Any technical challenges, talk to me.
9:43
We've got a chat panel here in this software we're using. If you want to DM me privately, that's cool. You know, whatevs." Like try to- Yeah... try to create an environment where there's that inclusiveness that...
9:54
'Cause sometimes some people may fall behind because they're actually maybe a little bit scared of asking the question that they should have asked 10 minutes ago because, "Oh, does that make me look like I don't have a clue about what my job is and who I am and what's- Yeah...
10:07
what's happening?"
10:08
So trying to create that space quite early was something that, you know, we, we certainly noticed as well, I, I certainly noticed as well as is, is really important of like, "Talk to me please" [chuckles] throughout this, this space.
10:18
Yeah. I mean, when you're- But it's, yeah... when you're in, in a room, you're, you're able to have those coffee conversations as well. Exactly.
10:22
And you have those one-to-one direct conversations of, "Okay, d- you look like you might have been a bit confused. I might have not explained it well for you. How-" Yeah...
10:32
"What, what can we do to kind of help you on with that?" Exactly. Yeah, I, I found it really hard. I hated it. So I, I hated doing- Yeah... VI- VILT anyway. Yeah. And so I used to do a, a three-hour
10:43
every two-week session that was 50 people on there, and I would literally sit with my feet on the window sill, not looking at the computer because I've done it so often, just kind of going through the motions, if you like.
10:54
I n- I never really enjoyed doing that online training at all, that, that in-person thing was way more interesting for me.
11:02
The personal stories, the per- personal anecdotes and yeah, the faces, 'cause often people just maybe five people in a room that are all trying to work at the same time due to COVID.
11:11
So yeah, it was hard to get the microphones and s- stuff switched on.
11:14
And has that kind of guided, you're now part work or you have for a little while been part of the CEDMA organization, which is definitely about bringing more community to our industry of customer education.
11:27
Maybe you can explain to the listeners who aren't familiar what CEDMA is in a second. But do you see that community side of things is becoming more important today? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
11:38
Um, I was talking to somebody the other day, um, around how I've kind of... You, you get a sense that a lot of stuff is becoming more dehumanized i- in many aspects of life.
11:48
And so how do you, do you make things more communitive in o- in other areas where you have the ability to do so?
11:55
Um, I think joining CEDMA and becoming a big part of that has, has been a major driver for me of like connecting with more and more people and helping them to find the resources and the tools they need to, to do better work.
12:09
Um, I think just for i- information there, CEDMA is the, is a member association that exists to service the customer education community globallyAnd, um, there's a wealth of resource available on there from, you know, research that's been done to webinars that have been conducted.
12:27
There's conferences that occur. There's a whole community with...
12:31
of just some really switched on, super intelligent people that have been there and done that, um, and also are learning themselves because this, this is the thing with customer education is you never stop learning.
12:44
There's, there's always something happening. There's always something new. Um, so it's a really great kind of hub for, for people to exist in and, and get the most out of it.
12:53
And yeah, I think, I think that's the, the thing, um, with it is, is connecting with human beings, talking to them, getting their experience, and taking from that what you need to, to hopefully make everything that you do better.
13:06
So I, I've really enjoyed being a part of the CEDMA board of directors over the last couple of years, and I think it's, yeah, it's a great thing for the industry to have a service like that. Yeah, definitely.
13:18
I mean, um, I have to say I'm not a member. Uh, I, I do communicate with a lot of members, uh, a, a lot of the board folks and, and I think there's some great voices on there, and there's a...
13:27
Anybody that doesn't follow, uh, CEDMA and the, the board members that are there and the community members then should go find you on LinkedIn, find some of the other members on LinkedIn and get involved in the conversations.
13:40
Um, I've had some great conversations with some of those folks. Uh, they all have valuable insights and many years of experience. Absolutely. But I can still learn from them as well, so- Definitely...
13:50
and obviously yourself, Dan. I might be able to share a thing or two. Maybe a thing or two. Yeah. Maybe not that much more than that- Yeah. Look... but who knows? No, no.
13:59
Um, and yeah, I'm finding that people want more community events, more in-person stuff.
14:04
I, I mean, I, I work from home on my own, a one, one-man band, a sing- single-person business sitting in this room, which, uh, probably looks okay on camera, but yeah, it's just a, a dark room that I sit in and, and crave that kind of in-person connection.
14:19
So yeah, we have an event this year, this month, Learning Technologies, so obviously we'll- Yeah... probably meet up there. Definitely.
14:25
Um, I have another event next month, uh, which is a, a conference which I haven't been to a conference proper for many, many years, but it's a learning and development conference, so I'm, I'm really looking forward to getting involved in that.
14:35
Nice. Um, and so yeah, I think that's, that's the future is, uh, uh, community in-person events to, to try and bring us back to that, that human insight. We're all stuck with AI and, uh, Zoom and in this case Riverside,
14:51
uh, uh, right now.
14:51
One of the biggest challenges, and I, I recorded a podcast with someone this morning, somebody else's podcast, and, and one of the things we got talking about was measurement, and I think it's a big thing in the industry today.
15:03
Uh, obviously we're trying to get away from these content libraries and, uh, obviously with your work at MediaOcean, it's not really a content library because you're delivering a different experience every single time you, you deliver the IL- ILT.
15:16
Uh, for you, how has measurement changed over the years and the, the, how do we measure success in learning generally? How do you think about success and failure from a measurement perspective in, in your mind?
15:29
I think measurement, yeah, it can be incredibly overwhelming, and a lot of people talk about it. A lot of people you, you feel are more advanced than you are, and maybe they are.
15:42
There are a lot of people out there that are doing some cool stuff with measurement.
15:45
But when you, you're just getting started, it does, it does feel incredibly overwhelming that you're like, "Okay, I've just got this survey that tells me that people like me or not, and that's about as much as I've got right now."
15:54
And it is really useful stuff, in fairness, like, I say, like- Happy sheets... the good old happy sheets. Yeah, I love calling them happy sheets. Those happy sheets that, yeah, they, they are very useful if they...
16:05
Was it a good experience? 'Cause you can then start to go, "Well, if they actually enjoyed it and they had fun,"
16:11
then you would argue that maybe they learned something along the way because if they didn't have fun and they didn't enjoy it, they probably switched off a bit, so they're less likely to have taken stuff away.
16:19
But it is then, yeah, kind of then taking it, taking it beyond there. I think for me the, the, the biggest thing around measurement is what's important to your company as opposed to what you can potentially measure.
16:32
I think we've, we've certainly spent some time here trying to figure out, like, how do we, how do we do this NRR or how do we do this one, and I don't really know if we can actually quite correlate it.
16:43
And you spend a lot of time because you're seeing others have maybe different programs where there is more kind of a direct link doing this stuff, and then you kind of come back to, well, what are our priorities right now as an organization?
16:55
How can I link up to those? How can I show that what we're doing makes any kind of difference with those things that are up there?
17:02
And that might not mean that you go into realms that you maybe want to because we all wanna prove that we're incredibly valuable and we're one of the most important resources that a company has.
17:13
I would always make that argument that we are, but, um, you know, there, there is that kind of sense of like, we've got to prove ourselves, but it's just proving what the company needs you to prove. So I...
17:24
Sometimes we, we, we don't go as far into metrics as maybe others do, but that's because we're trying to achieve these objectives which are linked to these metrics, so we're just gonna look at these.
17:34
As much as it might be fun to look at those ones over there, we're just gonna look at these. We're just gonna communicate these.
17:39
So I think when it comes to measurement, yeah, it is a bit of overwhelm, but the practical thing is what does your company actually care about? Yeah. And then what are you doing that impacts that?
17:49
And then are there, are there some data sets that you can prove along the way? I, I've, I've even had it to the point where we haven't had data sets. We've, we've just had feedback from customers, and that's been enough.
18:00
Yeah. Like from, you know, very key stakeholders at the organizations that we work closely with that have all said, "Hey, these programs are great. We, we, we really enjoy them. Uh, we want more of this."
18:11
That in itself can be enough depending on what your business priorities are. Um, so yeah, I think overwhelming- Yeah... but focus. Yeah, I th- I think that last point is very, very apt, I think.
18:22
Um-Feeling is, is often underused in business. So yeah- Mm... that while we can't necessarily prove feeling, there was, um, Simon Sinek, I'm not sure if you listen to any of his podcasts. So he- Yeah...
18:32
he had Will Guidara, who's the, used to run the, the world's best restaurant, and his, his thought of, okay, well, how do we really know that we're making it better?
18:43
How do- we, we can do all the, get all the data, we can get all the stats, we can get the reviews, but, but actually it's often a feeling. Do they walk out of the door with a smile on their face? Okay.
18:53
Have they had an engaging, interesting experience with us?
18:56
And that's the same for, uh, instructor-led training of- often, as you said earlier, is the trainer, the instructor in person, it's easier, can see that they've had a good experience. They were interactive.
19:07
They left with a smile on their face. They've used the system again afterwards, and, and maybe we've, we've given them some, some kind of inspiration.
19:14
So hard to measure, but definitely a useful am I in the right direction kind of scenario. Definitely.
19:21
Definitely, and I think with measure- measurement, if, if folks are like, again, that, that worry of getting started, it's, it's, you're trained versus untrained.
19:29
But then there is also the definition of what do you define as trained, which when you're delivering VI LT is potentially a little bit easier because did they, did they attend and did they participate?
19:38
And if they did, then I would classify that as trained versus somebody who didn't attend in the first place. And then can you then spite the differences from, from that. So that's, yeah, again, another kind of- Yeah...
19:49
easier way to get going, really. I, I'm gonna stay, stay on that theme for a second 'cause, uh, yeah, trained versus untrained. I, I had a lot of interesting conversations over the years about are they trained?
19:59
Are they enabled? Are they certified? Mm. So these are all kind of checkboxes, but none of them actually mean they learned anything. Right. So trained, yes, they attended. Did they participate? Maybe.
20:12
Did they take anything away? We don't know. Uh, are they enabled or what does enabled mean? Well, they ticked all these boxes. They know how to log in. They know how to click this button. They know how to
20:23
get some kind of output from there. Does it mean they really understand and they're able to do it themselves next time? Who knows?
20:30
Um, yeah, there's nobody ever asked are they learned because learning is the continuous part of it, right? So that's- Exactly... that's the key is have they learned anything? Yes. Did they learn enough?
20:40
Well, depends what their expected outcome was. And so- Exactly... again, it's all hypotheses and trying to vaguely link these meaningless, meaningful pieces of information to business metrics as well.
20:54
So super hard to do. Um, and- Right... uh, I think hypotheses and making assumptions is also a very good, uh, uh, way forward if you can, uh, um, quantify those assumptions with the right people. Definitely.
21:06
Yeah, I mean, learning can happen in so many different ways, in so many different moments, and it may be you did that, that training session. They, they may have come along to it. They may have looked engaged.
21:15
They may have done really great. They don't use the system then for four or five weeks, so they've definitely probably forgotten most of it. But they then had a look at something on your help center.
21:24
Maybe that was the thing that the learning then actually took place. It, it is so hard to track that if you could even track it at all. But, um, just having- Yeah...
21:33
that they did come, they didn't come, is enough to sort of start to show that there might be, might be some differences with what's happening. But yeah, to then define it further than that is very- Yeah...
21:43
very difficult. Yeah. I mean, um, the CFO wants to see the, the change to the bottom line. Did, did we make more money because of it? Did we save money because of it? Maybe. Is that a good enough answer?
21:54
[chuckles] Maybe.
21:54
Well, they did this, which equals this, which meant maybe this happened earlier, which meant maybe we got some revenue a bit closer to contract time, which maybe means that we did a better job and, and got more revenue into the company.
22:07
Yeah. Can I prove that directly? No. But I think that comes back to that sentiment piece, doesn't it?
22:12
Of like if your customers and the key stakeholders there are speaking really highly to very key people at your organization, and then if you're partnering and working really closely with all of the teams that you need to be, and you're, you're the kind of a consultative team that helps them out with some of the problems that they're facing, then they've got a positive opinion of you.
22:33
So everyone kind of gets a sense of like, you must be, you must be a part of this because you're helping us.
22:38
That's meaning I'm spending less time talking about these annoying things, and you're helping us l- you know, launch these new features and functionalities that our customers are adopting, so that's saving us time and effort there.
22:50
And the customers seem to think that you're really good as well.
22:52
So you must be, there must be some impact here from a bottom-line perspective, even if you can't go this metrics equals this, which equals that, as some kind of algebraic formula that [chuckles] helps you get there.
23:03
Yeah. It's, uh, yeah.
23:05
And, and you make a very good point there is often learning teams and customer education, other learning teams think they operate in a silo, and the biggest success that you can have when you're building learning practice in the business is to get outside the silos because, as you say, there are other people in the business that can guide you on whether you're being successful or not.
23:25
A customer success team, crucial to, to be a, a partner with because they're gonna give you the feedback of this customer wasn't successful, and they didn't attend training, or they attended training, but it wasn't right for them.
23:37
They're having those weekly or monthly conversations. Hopefully, if they're, uh, um, not just doing digital customer, uh, success, uh, they're actually having real conversations.
23:46
They're the stakeholders in the business that can help you along the way. Def- definitely one of the things that I feel like, or we, we would use the word mistake, but one of the things I feel like we,
23:58
I kind of got wrong, um, it was like almost like one of those COVID hang-ups of like everyone became isolated through that time period but found ourselves more isolated as a team and started making more decisions ourselves and doing things that we thought felt good and felt right.
24:16
But that consultative e- element had, had gone, um, and that's been a big change over the last two and a half, three years of likeWe, we s- you, you just can't do this on your own.
24:25
And if you do, then that then starts to create that, that, those negative perceptions internally, even if maybe the customer still might like you, it then creates this weird dynamic of, well, why do they like you?
24:34
'Cause, you know, we, we don't really work with you very closely, and did you actually impact them the way we wanted you to impact them?
24:40
We've got all these objectives that we're trying to achieve, and what are you, what are you setting out to do? So kind...
24:45
It was a very strange period of that isolation, but then teams becoming isolated, and yeah, I'm glad that we're, we're out of that now.
24:53
Over the last, I'd say two, three years of actually really regular communication, regular meetings.
24:58
Like, every time there's something new, let's, let's get in a virtual room and figure this out together and make this the best thing it can be.
25:05
And that might take a few meetings, but best to do that than rather go off on your own tangent and try and figure it out yourself.
25:11
And yeah, I remember one particular, uh, situation where we, um, were very excited to launch a new pro- uh, program about a product that, uh, or a product feature that was just coming out.
25:22
Um, spent a long time, a long time developing it to then find out on day of launch that none of our key customers were actually gonna use it until several months down the line because there was, there were some features that needed to be adapted for them.
25:35
Um, so yeah, we would've learned that better if we'd have collaborated. Um, so we- That, that sounds familiar. I think, uh- Yeah...
25:41
in, in a technical training product world, I think that happens a lot more often than people might think. Yeah, "We're, we're building this really cool feature." "Okay. It needs, needs training."
25:51
"But who's gonna use it?" "Well, we, uh, we've got one person that has shown an interest in it." "Okay, when are they gonna start using it?" "Well, they haven't signed a contract yet." "Okay.
26:00
Contract t- takes six months, so we're not gonna do it now." Yeah. Leads me on to a follow on. How good are you at saying no to things? Depends on the thing, and depends on [laughs] on the severity- And the person...
26:14
of it, and, and the person. And yeah, I th- I think, I mean, I've had to, I've had to say no quite a bit. It, it was a part- a particular period here at MediaOcean. It, it is the, the,
26:23
again, the sort of post-COVID era, era, um, where we did, we did see a few of our more kind of junior team members decide to, to move on to new roles at other organizations.
26:34
Uh, so we had to bring some, some new, new blood into the team.
26:37
Uh, some fantastic individuals that joined us and, um, but our products are incredibly, well, can be quite complicated, and it's a complex world where our customers use things differently, have different things switched on and off.
26:52
There's a, there's quite a c- a complexity to it. Along with trying to learn, uh, so our products are in the advertising space.
26:58
So trying to learn the complexities of how the advertising space alone works, um, can be quite daunting for new people.
27:04
So that was a period of time of having this, you know, really experienced workforce, but then at the same time inexperienced workforce together, and having to say no a lot because although these people over here could do it, and they ca- and they have been for...
27:20
I've got people that have been here for, like, 25-plus years. They, they can very much adapt to, right, we need to be saying these things. We need to, we need to do this a bit differently here.
27:29
This group over here can't, and it's not scalable to have some of your team be able to do something and some of your team not. Right.
27:35
So there was a period of time where I got used to saying no quite a lot, but no with explanation of, like, "We can't do that right now," and, "I would love to do that, but here's the reasons why we can't do that right now."
27:47
Um, but then there are gonna still be those times withi- even within that of, like, this is just far too important to say no to. Um,
27:55
I mean, on the counter point, there's some times where you say yes and you regret it as well. Um, I've certainly had moments like that where we probably haven't been ready to, to- Right...
28:03
to do something, and we've said yes, uh, or I've said yes, and, um, and then we're like, "Yeah, no, we definitely weren't ready for that." [laughs] And it, and it can cause, it can cause problems, like, um, so yeah.
28:16
I think it, it's, it's just ta- I think it's just ti- it's experience.
28:20
It's, like, knowing, knowing what your team is capable of doing, knowing in your mind what you, what the product is that you wanna put out, or at least the sort of, not the exact product, but, like, the philosophy of the product.
28:31
Like, this is the things that we really don't wanna be... So things like we wanna make sure it's all hands-on. We wanna make sure we're giving people time to explore the products, all, all these kind of things that...
28:40
Maybe phil- philosophical is the wrong word, but, like, these principles that we- Yeah... gonna have the principles, but the design may be different.
28:47
We may have to concede in c- certain things because it's the right thing to do for, for us, the company, and also for the customers.
28:54
So you just, you just, I guess, learn that over time of what works and what, what doesn't work.
28:59
Um, you know, I think one, one thing where we, uh, do stamp our ground, uh, kind of fork into the ground on a lot, uh, these days is, is new users versus existing users.
29:10
And, uh, quite often we, we will have an experience where maybe there's a new workflow that they're gonna use in the software, so there's gonna be new ways of doing things, and, um, there's always that kind of, "We wanna get this done as quickly as possible."
29:24
And the quickest way is to chuck everyone in a Zoom with no, no participant limit and just hit them with the knowledge. Yeah.
29:31
Which may, is, is, may work for those that have used the software and kind of they've got all of that pre-existing knowledge, and they've got the knowledge of their jobs and what they're supposed to be doing.
29:41
You can probably do that with them because they'll just go, "Okay. Yeah, I've got to click a few different buttons. I know what those buttons are. I know where they are. You've just shown me. That's fine."
29:48
But if you've got a new user, they don't know what the old workflow was. They frankly don't care- Yeah... probably 'cause they've just started. So they, they- Yeah... still need to go through those processes.
29:55
So, you know, I think that that's been something that we definitely foot down on. Like, these are, these are separate people, and they need a- Yeah...
30:03
separate experience, and you do get that kind of push and shove quite a lot of, like, well, we just wanna get them through as quickly as possible.
30:09
But as long as you've got the capability within your team and, um, you know, the, the ability to meet the demands, then that kind of counters it quite nicely. So yeah. Yeah. Lots of situations. Yeah.
30:20
I think, uh, yeah, context is key there, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Making sure that that's the right context for the right user at the right time. Right.
30:26
So, but yeah, the, the, the yes and no thing, I think is one of theThe big things that I had to learn moving from individual contributor, where I would always say yes, 'cause somebody would be saying, "Can you do this?"
30:38
And I'd go, "Yeah, that's fine."
30:39
And then becoming a leader and somebody that has to take more responsibility for the outcomes, uh, that are being generated, you need to learn very quickly that no is also an acceptable answer in the right circumstances.
30:53
So the no and or yes and, uh- Yeah... or yes but I think are, are very important skills to learn. Very much so.
31:00
So you s- you spent quite a long time as individual contributor, and now you've been a, a leader for a while, quite some years. What, what skills had to change for you to make that leap?
31:10
Were there any times where you didn't have the right skills in place to deal with situations? Yeah. I think for me, 'cause like
31:18
I ha- I had leadership experience prior to Meteor Ocean, and I think that, that was kind of what helped a lot 'cause that wa- that wa- that was, um, back in my retail days, I, I, I started managing small retail stores from the age of 20.
31:32
And I, and I always had it if... I don't, yeah, no, I can't point, pinpoint the moment, but certainly at, at the age of 19, I was like, "I really wanna be a manager. This seems really cool."
31:40
Like I th- and I, I can't give... I can't really figure out exactly why that happened. Um, that, that- Money. [laughs] Yeah. At 19, probably was over the cash. Yeah, yeah, bigger pay packet.
31:50
May- maybe it was to do with that and the absolutely terrible Peugeot 306 I was driving around in at the time. Maybe something to do with that.
31:58
Um, I, maybe it's just something looking at football soccer managers and thinking, "Oh my God, like these, these people are cool. I wanna, I wanna do something similar to that."
32:06
But yeah, I- Definitely not soccer managers. Football managers, you are right. Yeah. That's right. I'm sorry. I've just- Football...
32:10
just in case the podcast is global, you know, we've gotta make sure that we, you know, we're, we're helping everyone out, yeah. It's not happening. [laughs] Sorry to any of the American listeners here.
32:16
That's a sep- that's a separate- Uh, Apple listeners... that's a separate podcast that we need to get onto- Yeah... isn't it, of, of that? But yeah.
32:23
I, I, I think having that young, and I really enjoyed helping people become better at their jobs and, you know, that also then helping them either themselves make more money, get promoted or, you know, go into new roles in other companies and, and kind of mentor still.
32:39
I really en- enjoyed that. I think that was a, the two biggest things I learnt from that to, to now leading at Meteor Ocean. It's just like slow down. It's all good. It's the...
32:51
When you're, when you're younger, or at least for me, I don't, I don't wanna, don't wanna say to, to everybody, but for me, when I was younger, I was very, like I wanna win and I wanna win quickly and, um, I wanna grow fast.
33:03
I wanna be, I wanna, I wanna manage the big flagship store tomorrow if possible. And so there's... And, and, uh, we- I ran successful stores. There's no, there's certainly no doubt about that.
33:15
But, um, there was always just a, maybe a slight chip on the shoulder of like, I want bigger, I'm, you know, I can, I'm proving myself. I want this, I want this. And just slow down. Take time. It's cool.
33:26
Like what are you learning through this? What, what's, what's actually happening? What, what is working and not working? And- Yeah...
33:34
so when you then hit a situation where it, it suddenly doesn't work, what do you have available to you that you can then go, "Right, I know this will work and I know this will work, and I can turn this or turn this around"?
33:43
Um, and yeah, just not kind of maybe not developing the tool set so much through that process because it was almost like that again, like I say, like win, win now and- Yeah... grow, grow as fast as possible.
33:55
So that was a big thing. And probably came with maturity, probably came with having, uh, being outnumbered by children in the house. Probably a few things that kind of made that, made that change.
34:04
I think as well then, like working at Apple for a few years, um, you know, well, I was only there for like, um, four years. That was the introduction to people like Simon Sinek.
34:14
That was the introduction to frameworks and different ways of handling different situations.
34:19
So actual, like if this happens, if a customer yells in your face, th- these are the steps to carry out, and this is a, a framework that is actually really good. And if you...
34:29
You'll find that many an Apple employee, uh, or former Apple employee that still uses those things pretty much every single day. There's, there's certain frameworks, I won't get into them, but they are...
34:37
There's just the just, you just use them naturally. And probably other people just use them naturally anyway, but you, you learn that kind of getting really a real understanding of what maybe did... Again, what did work.
34:47
Why did, why did I have some success before? I don't really understand how I did. I was just driving really hard. And then, um, I think managing upwards probably is another huge one.
34:58
Certainly again, when you're moving from management to then moving into director and, and moving through that. Um, again, I think 'cause when I was younger I had that bit of a chip on my shoulder.
35:08
Uh, it was a bit of a, um... I think got on well with my, my peers and my managers because they were really great people that worked really hard as well.
35:17
Maybe because there was that like, "Hey, I want more," kind of thing that there was, there was always something that was slightly off that was there. Um, and so
35:25
yeah, I think, I mean, I, I mean, I've been very fortunate with the leaders I've had at Meteor Ocean that, you know, they've been fantastic people to work with, really helped me be able to try things out and experiment and explore and,
35:39
you know, back to that yes and no thing. There's, there's not been too many nos over the years of like, "Well, don't go in that direction. That looks, that looks a bit too scary."
35:45
There's a bit been like, "Hey, let- let's just go and see, see what happens," and that enablement of being able to, to do it.
35:51
Um, and that kind of coaching and mentorship that, and the collaboration that you get, it's been, been fantastic.
35:56
So it's been a lot easier to, you know, kind of quote-unquote, "manage upwards" because it's just been very, very natural, very organic.
36:02
But I think it was also that maturity of I don't, I don't need to be the head of, VP of tomorrow. There's, there's a journey that I need to go on here- Yeah...
36:12
and I'm happy to take that journey and happy to take the, the time to learn new things along the way about myself and about the business. And when I get there, I get there, you know? That's just- Yeah. Definitely. Yeah.
36:23
I think when you're 19, 20, you think, you know, it's, it's, you gotta hustle to get promoted, but as you get older you realize that if you do a good job, uh, you, you have the right work ethic, then the promotions will come if you- Exactly...
36:36
if you care about job titles. In fact, probably-I, I'm not sure if it's the same with you. Um, for me, director was, wow, this is really cool, and then the next promotion was like, was just another job title.
36:48
I don't really care. Um, and I didn't, I wasn't pushing for it. It was like, "Well, we're gonna give you senior director." "Okay, great. Thanks. What, what does that mean? My job's the same. It makes no difference."
36:59
Um, maybe there's a little bump in salary, but job titles become less meaningful, uh, I think the further along in your career. For me anyway. I think maybe there's some- Yeah... people that always wanna be a CEO.
37:09
Yeah, and I think with the, the other thing you kind of learn over the years as well, and I think maybe it's that move from individual contributor to leader is, is that reassurance piece and that, "Tell me I'm doing a good job, please."
37:21
Um, especially, again, when you're, when you... For me, when I was younger, of like, "Hey, look, I'm doing great things. Please praise me and praise the team."
37:29
And as you get older, you, you get used to, I mean, that's just not sustainable in any kind of business that you have to constantly have this reassurance and you grow, you mature, you're able to go, "I know I'm doing a decent job here."
37:41
You know? My, my boss might tell me once in a while I'm doing a good job, and it feels really good when that happens, but like I know in myself, like, you know, I can see what the, what's going on.
37:51
I can hear what's going on. You c- you get, you can become comfortable with that, and I think certainly, again, like that move from manager to director, um, is quite a significant move.
38:00
But that, that becomes even more of, like, okay, I need to be very okay with feeling okay about what we're doing. Yeah. And yeah, that's a, that's a big maturity piece that takes place. Yeah.
38:11
I, I, I definitely went through those scenarios. But then came out the other side and got to the point where I had to go... I was told, "Well, you don't put... Your success is enough." Right. I was like, "Uh, okay."
38:23
Yeah, you have to go back into...
38:24
Well, actually, you do still need to market yourself and your successes and what your outcomes are because otherwise the business is looking at you as a, "Are they actually doing anything?"
38:32
So yeah, it's easy to go too far the other way, I think. Yeah, I think so. You g- you get so used to, the team's amazing, this is the, the... And, a- and they are. [laughs] They are great. Yeah.
38:43
And they do a fantastic job. And you do forget that, like, "Hey, what have I, what have I done? And what, what have I... What's my contribution to this?"
38:49
'Cause I've contributed, you know, a whole vision and purpose behind this that- Yeah... has ca- caused this to happen. Um, yeah, that self-promotion piece.
38:57
And it, I, maybe it's, uh, I don't know if it's a, a British thing as well. We're not, we're not particularly good at talking about ourselves, um- No... or selling ourselves in the best, best of ways.
39:06
We, we all do fantastic work, but it's just like, it feels a bit weird- Yeah... to sort of, "Hey, I, I'm good at what I do." And you just feel like maybe you're putting yourself out there and people are gonna go, "Yeah.
39:17
Ego." Yes, indeed. Yes. But, and now I'm gonna put you on the spot because now you, you're, you're starting to, or have to start thinking in a, a, a way of putting yourself out there, right? So, uh, there, there- Yes...
39:31
is a, a, a new part of your journey that's been ongoing for the last few months, I guess, maybe longer. Um, tell us about that. Yeah. So, um, starting up a new company, a new product called Livefox.
39:44
This has been something that I guess has been in the back of my mind for a long time, a really long time. Uh, but never, [sighs]
39:52
never really the ability to, to do it before, and I think this, this new wave of AI technologies, vibe coding, it's kind of never been really easier to start to create some product.
40:04
So it was something that was always on my mind. I was... I... Essentially, Livefox is a quiz and live Q&A platform.
40:12
Um, so if you've ever used softwares like that where you can have a gamified experience at the end of a training session where people can take a quiz and there's leaderboards, there's emojis, there's fun.
40:24
You know, this is what Livefox can do. Um, but it can also not do that as well.
40:29
So if you have experience where perhaps the audience doesn't want that kind of shiny fun, um, 'cause it's not the kind of fun that they enjoy, then you can turn all of that off and just have a simple, like, do they know the answer or do they not know the answer, and work your way through that.
40:43
And yeah, this is k- kind of born out of experiences with these platforms over the years. Like, really enjoy using them.
40:49
I think they, they, they really offer a lot to, to these, especially a virtual instructor-led session as well, where again, it's, it is a very different experience and you are really trying to maximize every moment and make every moment feel engaging.
41:02
Um, but yeah, you do want to, to be able to assess whether there's some level of knowledge that's been transferred, even if they've done the thing, can they remember why they done the thing and how they did the thing?
41:11
But whenever I've used products like that, you get one or the other. You get one flavor or the other flavor. You get either super fun, confetti splashing your face, music going, pumping and it's- [laughs]...
41:23
it's, you know... Out. Yeah. And, or you get the other aspect, which is just really kind of black and white, we're gonna work our way through the Q&A here and, and then we're, we're out.
41:34
Um, and I just think sometimes, sometimes you just don't know either.
41:39
Like, uh, and, and this is one of the things that's one of the features of, of Livefox, is not only do you have the ability to switch that on and off at a kind of overall sense level, but even at an individual quiz level or even the moment that you launch.
41:52
Because s- sometimes you're like, "Hey, this crowd, maybe I didn't understand this audience very well," and as I'm now going through this, I'm like, "I just don't think leaderboards and emojis are for them.
42:03
Let's switch that off just as I launch 'cause I think this is gonna be, actually gonna create the, a more negative impact."
42:10
Um, or even the opposite, you're like, "Ah, just, I, I'm gonna be dealing with this type of audience. I've always associated them with, you know, bow ties and, you know, suits and all this kind of stuff." Right.
42:20
And then you, you're working your way through and you're like, "This is, this is really fun. These... This, this is, this is amazing. I actually think if I switch this on, this is gonna have an even more bigger impact."
42:30
So I think this is, this is it. And so yeah, kind of late, later time of last year, I thought let's, let's start to try and build something and let's see, see how this works and-Yeah.
42:40
Learned, uh, learned a lot [laughs] about how products work. I, I was gonna say, what, what, what, what have you learnt, uh, that you didn't know about before from a, a product perspective or a business perspective?
42:49
What, what's- Yeah... what's your biggest takeaways from the process? You have a much greater appreciation for product teams, it's fair to say. I mean, I always had an appreciation for product teams.
42:59
I want to, I want that on the record. But [laughs]... But you, you, you're, you... It's incredible how you, you're like, "Right, I need to change this setting. I'm gonna change this setting over here.
43:08
I'm gonna ch- adjust this." And then you go to test and you go, "Okay, that all works, but now I seem to have broke that thing over there, and I can't figure out how these two things are connected.
43:19
And, and, uh, now I've gotta go and do that, and now I've got... Maybe I've got decoupled it. Now I've gotta figure all this out."
43:24
It's just, just surprising, surprising, uh, when you haven't kind of done that stuff before as to, to how it all... how easy something can impact something else.
43:33
And they try and take the time to build things in ways that maybe that doesn't happen.
43:39
St- certainly there was a experience back in January where I thought, "Ah, this is moving along nicely," and I, I can't remember what exactly it was I did, but the core functionality of the product just completely stopped working.
43:50
And that was- [laughs]... that was a weekend of like, "Okay, what, what did I do? How do I undo it?" But also, "What the heck?" Like [laughs] "How was... How did that happen?" So that's been a really big thing.
44:01
I, I think the, the next biggest learn is the... It comes back to the whole, like, you know, selling yourself kind of thing and, and selling something, is that,
44:12
yeah, it's gonna be a new experience of, like, younger in my career I was selling products. That was my retail journey and of selling products to people. Um, this feels very much more that the product is from me.
44:25
It's more like selling myself, which is something that is a little bit more uncomfortable to do. And, um, yeah, and maybe people will go like, "Oh, but you've been on things. You've done webinars. You've done talks."
44:37
It's like it's still... But I'm still talking about things that have happened, like work- Yeah... that has taken place. I'm not going like... And this is a bit more like- This is what, yeah, yeah...
44:46
yeah, this is like- You're gonna give them a vision of what it will do for them. Yeah. And it's gonna be a very new, new thing, and I've gotta become very comfortable, I think, very quickly at that.
44:56
And, um, but I, I, I, I feel, I do feel very passionately about, about this. This was sort of started as a bit of a, "Can I do this?" And then as it kind of evolved, it was a bit like, "This actually works.
45:08
It works pretty well." I think this is really valuable because my experiences have led me to this today of like I'm building this because of that, of wanting something that's deeper. I'm wanting better analytics.
45:21
Like wanting to be able to do AB testing.
45:23
I feel like that's such a s- a simple thing of like let's do a, let's do a quiz at the end of the session and you, you know, "Hey, you do that quiz, and I'll do this one, and we'll see who scores better and maybe we can, uh...
45:34
maybe we're wording questions wrong here, or maybe we haven't covered the right content. And we can, we can figure it out."
45:39
And, and not really having those, those options, not having the analytics to kind of tell these things of what's working, what's not working. Um, you know, I, I think there's, there's lots of stuff like...
45:50
And then pricing, which I think, hey, look, I'll say it today- [laughs]... and maybe in a few years' time it might be different, so this maybe not the bit to clip out.
45:58
But I want, I want a simplistic pricing model because I... It's so frustrating when you're like, "Okay, I'm on this plan, so I'm adding now two users. So if I add that and I carry the one, that means that-" [laughs] "...
46:11
I'm now paying this, which actually like now costs more than my LMS. Okay. Right. Gotcha. That... I'm paying more for a, for a quiz platform than an LMS. Makes sense. Cool." Um- Yeah... you know, and, and that's...
46:24
It just, it's just, it feel- feels far too complex. I'm just like, "Look, here's, here's the model. It's, it's a pricing scale by user. You get everything." Yeah. You just get everything. Yeah, yeah.
46:32
Like I don't wanna- I think-... I don't wanna mess about. Like, you know, here it is...
46:36
for me, that's a very wise move, having been a, a, a purchaser many times trying to work out, okay, how did they get to that price based on my number of users, based on what I need, based on one of the, the content authoring tools we needed.
46:49
And so we add licenses for authors, and then we said, "Well, we need to add some reviewers." "Okay, so they're not gonna author anything. They just literally need to put comments on things."
46:58
"Oh yeah, you need a full license for each of those." Ugh. "Oh." Yeah. "So we just doubled the, the price we've got. We had six licenses, 6,000, uh, a year, whatever it was, 6,000 pounds.
47:09
Uh, we now need to double that just to get s- six people in reviewing stuff." And- Well, if I can-... I can't, can't use shared logins. No. Well, this is it.
47:17
I mean, if I was to do a cheeky plug there, I mean, we'd, uh, around Lifebooks, which feels like that's gonna be my life now, making sure I can get these plugs in and feel comfortable doing them.
47:25
But moderators are unlimited. And, and so like one of the functionalities is the ability to do your Q&A sessions.
47:31
So when you, when you go to these amazing conferences and there's large crowds, there are products obviously that exist that can take all your questions and, and relay them up there.
47:40
But as a facilitator, it's probably quite difficult to start to manage that whilst you're doing the talk, whilst... So- Yeah...
47:46
having a moderator that can, could do that for you and to, to tee up all the questions for you, they, they haven't... They, they just moderate. Like that's... They're just there- Yeah...
47:54
to, to support, and they do a fantastic job. But, uh, why are we paying for them to have access to the system when they're just gonna click Launch and then help do that? So yeah, that's a,
48:03
another thing that's like, yeah, no, they're, they're not paying for them. [laughs] That's not- Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think I've seen, I'm seeing more of the simplistic, uh, pricing around Parter. Uh- Yes...
48:14
and I think you're familiar with them, and their, their pricing model is, is super- Yeah... uh, easy to understand.
48:20
I, I, I'm not gonna get into the details, but you, you can look, go on their page and go, "Oh, that's how much it's gonna cost me. Okay, great." Yeah. Thrive is another one. They have a calculator on their site.
48:28
How many users have you got in your business? Like, that's what your price will be. So you can see it very clearly.
48:34
Um, particularly on the learning management system side, we know, uh, it, it depends who you talk to, what day of the month it is, where in the quarter it is, h- what their quota is for the salesperson, and then maybe there's a deal to be done after that.
48:46
So yeah. Uh-Easy to understand pricing is, is, uh, um, the right way to go from a purchaser's, a procurement pers-perspective for me, so very cool. Yeah. So you can keep plugging.
48:59
So how can people find out more about Livefox? Yeah, they can go to the website. Probably the, the best place. That's, uh, golivefox.com.
49:07
Has been updated this week, so I have recorded a couple of pretty scrappy YouTube videos, it's fair to say. So those are now on the homepage. You can see how I created a quiz, um, using AI. So AI is in there.
49:19
I mean, I, I, I feel like you don't even plug that- Of course... anymore in twenty twenty-six, right? Like it's, it's like it, it has AI. Okay, cool. You know. You don't have an AI-powered badge on there?
49:26
No, there's none, none of that on there. I think it's, uh, yeah, as I say, it's just a given, like, I think for me these, these days.
49:31
But, uh, I created a quiz on Radiohead's discography, which, um, is a band that I very much adore.
49:39
Um, for anyone that doesn't wanna watch the video, uh, spoiler, I do get a question wrong, and I will say after the recording, beat myself up pretty heavily about it and I was like, "God, you should've known that one.
49:49
That sucks." Um- You're supposed to say, "Oh, I did it on purpose just to show that what- Yeah. Look... what a wrong answer use case would look like."
49:55
For people that listen to the, to the podcast, they now know the truth. For those that don't listen to it, you'll be like, "Ah, he's done that really well in that video.
50:01
He's deliberately got that question wrong to show us that- No, he didn't. Don't worry... the, the streak has been broken," and all of that kind of stuff. Um, but yeah, so there's a couple of videos on there.
50:09
There's, there's one of that. There's also one of how the Q&A session feature works. Um, so yeah, hopefully can people get a feel for it. Again, completely transparent. It's there.
50:18
You can see how the product works in action. There is free trials available, so perhaps on the distribution of this podcast, we can come up with a cool promo code, and people can get an extended trial.
50:28
Very happy to let people have a little bit longer in the software to get a real feel for it. So we'll, we'll come up with something that we can do, do on launch there. And, and have a play around with it.
50:37
See, see what it's like, see what you like, what you don't like. Tell me as well. Come and find me on LinkedIn, or you can actually communicate to me through the platform as well. You can send me feedback as well.
50:47
But, hey, what did you like? What didn't you like?
50:49
You know, that's really, really useful information, and I think that's something as part of this process over the last few months of getting some, you know, fantastic people in there to, to have a play around and be like, "Hey, this...
50:59
Maybe this bit doesn't work as great as I'd like it to," or, "This UI doesn't make as much sense as I'd like it to."
51:05
You know, that's the only way you grow a product is by making it work for the people that are gonna be using it.
51:10
So I think that's all about the next stage of this is can we get more people in there, more people playing around with it. Eventually, hopefully, people paying for it. You know, that is, that is the, uh- Yeah...
51:19
core of any, any new business idea. But, you know, it's, it's a product that I want to exist for people that use it. And, um, you know, if they're like, "Hey, we really would like to see..."
51:29
So for example, like, um, I've kind of recently deployed an on-demand feature for, for quizzes. I kind of technically call this in beta right now.
51:36
It works, it functions, it does what it needs to do, but I'm sure there's gonna be feedback there of like, "Hey, have you considered doing branching and stuff like that?"
51:44
And it's like, "Yeah, look, I've got a whole list of things that I feel would be good, but if you like that, let's move that up the list, and let's see if we can work on that sooner." And so lots of growth still to come.
51:55
Proper, proper product mindset. Yeah. I think this is it. It's...
51:58
And again, that's been an experience over this last few months of you're feeling passionately about something, but then, like, you're giving it to, to, to the world, and then the responsi- uh, I say responsibility, but you're responsible, but you, you want everyone to tell you.
52:13
It becomes, again, a little bit selfless in a way, um, which probably is something that feeds through my career a little bit of, of being like moving into more senior leadership becomes very much more selfless.
52:23
Like the work that I do at Sedmo, which is, you know, helping people grow and develop is, you know, it's a volunteer work. It's, it's pretty selfless- Yeah... from that, that perspective. And, you know- Definitely...
52:35
I, I think that's, that's the thing of, like, you can feel good about those things, morally feel pretty good about those things. So yeah, continuing that philosophy with this. Very cool. Yeah.
52:45
Uh, uh, and I've been lucky enough to be in the platform, have a play around myself, give some feedback to you along the way. Uh, and yeah, I, I love it. I think it's a, a, a great product.
52:54
It fits a nice gap in the market. So I wish you all success on that, and I will continue to test it out for you as, as you s- need me to. Awesome. Thank you. So we're, we're almost at the end.
53:05
I have a couple of, uh, quick-fire questions for you. Yes. So just something I do at the end of all my podcasts. Uh, very simple.
53:12
Book, podcast recommendation, something that's had a long-lasting impact on you, what, what would you recommend people go and read or listen to if they're wanting to get deeper into the world of learning? Oh.
53:24
Uh, I'll give you one on learning, and then I'll give you just one more broadly. Um, so Julie Dirksen's Design for How People Learn book. I, um, I'm not a big book reader at all. I struggle...
53:36
I really struggle to pick up a book and read. Um, I fi- I've got to really get myself motivated for it. Um- Not read any of them. [laughs] This is it. Yeah. These ones here. They look great on a shelf.
53:46
Um, but, uh- They look great behind me. [laughs] And every da- now and again, you have got to dust them off because they do get quite dusty if you don't actually use them. Uh, it is the only book I've ever read twice.
53:56
So I, uh, that's one that I- High praise... go- I've used a couple of times in my career, and, um, I, I really highly recommend it. So I would- She, uh, she was at Sedmo, wasn't she? She was. She was.
54:09
And she did a, she did a really great talk on, um, you know, kind of really talking about the concept that she has around the elephant and the rider.
54:16
And, uh, she has a book that came out recently around, uh, Talk with the Elephant, which I'm starting to slowly make my way through.
54:23
Um, but a really interesting idea about how you may know that the thing that you're learning about is the right thing to learn about, but actually motivations and that side of things and the moment of need and, and all of that aspect, it's, uh, it's very, very interesting and I think very applicable to L&D, to customer education around if somebody doesn't need to know the thing in the moment, it's a pretty hard task to transfer information to them, and probably almost an impossible task.
54:48
Yeah. So really interesting books. Um, outside of that, we've already mentioned Simon Sinek. I am a huge Simon Sinek fan. The Infinite Game is something that I...
54:56
is kind of, again, a phil- more of a philosophy, but that need of constant improvement, of not feeling like you've reachedThe end, and, you know, that's, okay, the goal is to make this thing better.
55:08
We have made this thing better, end-endgame. Let's move on with our lives.
55:11
It's like, no, it's a constant, constant thing, and I, again, I know in customer education we feel that a lot because everything moves very quickly, and AI is now moving very quickly.
55:20
We're now learning how to, to do things to, to help with that. So I think just having that mindset of it's infinite and I think s- like you don't go from point A to point B. There is just...
55:30
It's just a constant- Yeah...which is a pretty big thing. You can't win customer education, right? No, you can't. I- No...wish you could. There's nobody, nobody wins customer education. No. [laughs] Nobody wins sales.
55:39
You just play the game. Long term. Yeah, exactly. And it's a long game. Yeah. So if- There's always another target. Exactly. Exactly.
55:45
So I think that's a really good, particularly for moving into, if you're not a leader, but moving into leadership, a really important book to really get that different kind of mindset on how things work. Nice.
55:54
One last question then. What do you, uh, think the future of customer education might look like? In a few words, not in, uh, uh, w- not in 10 minutes, but, uh, in- Ooh...60 seconds maybe. In 60 seconds. Pure context.
56:08
Absolute unadulterated context. Two words. Yeah, I think that's it.
56:12
I think you, y-you, you know, there's, the way AI is going, agents and everything, potentially more and more softwares could become more and more automated.
56:19
We've been able to task something to do the thing for you in the platform.
56:23
Knowing exactly what you need to achieve and why you need to achieve it has never been more important, and I think it's been something that has been a journey in customer education from a few years ago of we're not product education, we're customer education.
56:33
This is a very different understanding of things. I think that has never been more important right now of like why are they doing the thing that they're trying to do? What are they trying to achieve?
56:42
And then that will then inform how they do the thing. The doing of the thing is s- starting to become less of a thing. Um- Yeah...I'm using the word thing a lot, but hopefully- Yeah...we get it. Yeah.
56:53
It, it relates to everything then, right? Yeah. Everything.
56:55
But yeah, I think, uh, you could probably take that pure context and, and push it across multiple realms- Absolutely...in the business world and in the personal world now.
57:03
Yeah, AI is changing everything, and prompt engineering is dead. Context engineering is, uh, the new prompt engineering.
57:09
And so, yeah, context is key for everything that we wanna learn, everything we wanna do, or everything that we wanna achieve as business or in business. So cool. Stan, thank you very much.
57:19
I will make sure that there's a link to Livebox in the, uh, description for the, uh, the podcast and the video when it goes on YouTube. Um, thank you very much for your time.
57:28
Hopefully, you haven't had too many bashes on the door from the kids along the way. It's been surprisingly quiet, which is almost more worrying. Well, best of luck- [laughs]...following this in this podcast then.
57:39
But yeah, thank you very much for your time, and we will chat again in the future. Brilliant. Thanks for having me on. Really appreciate it.
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