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Feb 23, 2026
The Learning Stack Episode 1: Rita Azevedo - From Global Citizen to Learning Leader
The Learning Stack Episode 1: Rita Azevedo - From Global Citizen to Learning Leader
00:00
55:38
Transcript
0:00
Hello, this is Mark Dearlove, and welcome to the very first episode of the Learning Stack Podcast.
0:05
Today, I'm joined by Rita Azevedo, multi-local global citizen who's lived everywhere from Portugal to Turkey and is now helping shape the future of learning development over in Stockholm with Sanah.
0:15
We're tracking her journey from international NGOs and neuroscience studies to leading learning at Klarna and customer success at Sanah.
0:23
Gonna discuss why she treats every employee like a company founder, the importance of slow thinking, and how she once used AI to save elephants. This episode is titled From Global Citizen to Learning Leader. Enjoy.
0:37
Hi, Rita. How are you? Hey, Mark. I'm great. I'm so excited for this, uh, talk that we're gonna have. I'm really excited- This conversation...
0:45
to have you on the first one ever of the Learning Stack Podcast, so, uh, yeah, you're the... You're my guinea pig, uh, actually. I feel so special.
0:52
[laughs] You might not feel so special once we're at the end, so, uh, we'll see how it goes. Good.
0:57
So, um, uh, I think the most important thing for us to do for the audience is for you to introduce yourself and, uh, tell us a little bit about, uh, you as a person.
1:07
Obviously, this podcast is about you and your learning, uh, your background- Mm-hmm... and how you've got to where you are through learning. Um, we'll, we'll, we'll delve in as we see fit.
1:18
So tell the audience what we need to know about you. Boy, [laughs] I have to pick. Yes. I could speak... I could tell all my life, but, but I think that, um, I, I am many things.
1:33
I think most and foremost, I usually say that I'm a global citizen because I've been in many, many places, and that's the thing that I, uh, I think keeps me, keeps me so alive is that feeling of adventure.
1:46
I am originally from Portugal, born and raised, but I have left many years ago, and today I'm sitting, uh, in Stockholm, Sweden, where I have lived for the past eight and a half years, which is crazy.
1:59
It has moved so, so fast. I bet. I saw you via Turkey as well, right? Yes. Turkey, uh, Finland, uh, Italy, Hungary. Yes. Wow! A few, a few places. Um- Some journey. For sure. For sure.
2:14
And I think that, um, that has made me who I am today. I'm a bit of a mix of everything.
2:21
There's a term called multi-local, which is like, you know, you, you lived in Istanbul, and in Helsinki, and Stockholm, and it's not really a Finnish or a Turkish thing, but it's like the city that I lived, a few of the behaviors that I, I took from, from there.
2:35
Um, and I kind of, uh, stumbled upon, uh, sort of the, the, the learning, uh, area, a- as I think we've talked about before.
2:45
It wasn't something that I wasn't supposed to do, but as many people probably, uh, also listening, um, you have an opportunity and you take it, and then you're like, "Oh, I like this actually." Uh, and I...
2:58
And then you, you just continue, uh, and you learn. Uh, but initially, I, I studied business, uh, and then I studied political science after that.
3:06
I wanted to be a diplomat, and I believe I do a little bit of that differently now. [laughs] Yeah.
3:12
Working in, uh, in a tech company or any, uh, software company or, or service business is, uh, is definitely part diplomat, I think, uh, working with customers, working with partners. Uh- Exactly...
3:23
there's a lot of that there, so nice. Yeah. So, so it's a bit about, about myself and, um, and I think that, um, over the years, I had to rediscover myself, uh, very, very, very often.
3:36
Uh, and also being constantly moving around, I had to become very flexible and very adaptive, uh, as well. So it's something that I, I took, I took with me. I'm happy in Sweden now.
3:47
I don't plan to move anywhere else, [laughs] but we'll see where life takes me. Excellent. Yeah, it's a beautiful city. Uh, I nearly moved there myself. I think we've talked about that in the past as well.
3:56
Nearly moved there myself many years ago. Okay. So, um, the, the shift from business ops to learning, now the- there's... I talk to quite a lot of people in, uh, learning roles who've shifted from some other area.
4:09
Uh, I talked to someone tod-today who was in tech support, who's moved to customer education. Um, myself, I started in a call center and ended up- Oh...
4:18
volunteering for something and saying, "Yeah, I can do that," which was teaching. Um- Yeah... and I've hired people that have gone through that same kinda journey.
4:25
So what, what made you move from that business operational, uh, um, scenario into learning specifically? That is a great question, uh, and as I said before, it, it wasn't really something I was planning to.
4:40
So, uh, right after college, I decided that I wanted to save the world, so I joined an NGO, uh, as many do, and I...
4:49
That's what took me really to Finland and then to, to Turkey, and that NGO was all about multicultural understanding. So you would essentially manage, uh, internship experiences for young people.
5:01
So I remember still sending my first, uh, young woman, 18 years old. She went to India all alone for six weeks, and she came back completely changed, and you can imagine. Yeah, it's a bit of... It's a...
5:16
Y- you go through all the shocking phases, and then you're kind of like, "Oh, I'm home." And then you come back home, and then you're a little bit more complete, a little bit different as a person.
5:24
So that was what I, I did right after school, um, and a lot of that, uh, obviously allowed me to do many different things, right? You know, I, I would do whatever was needed.
5:36
Uh, in, in Finland, I was doing, uh, operations, right? So I was really responsible for the growth of the product of, you know, really sending people abroad.
5:44
In Turkey then, they gave me this role called talent management, and I was like, "What? What is this?" [laughs] "Why, why me?" Um, and, uh, part of that allowed me to visit many cities in Turkey and to coach teams.
6:00
So I went to-Even close to Syria. I went to the south of Turkey, the north of Turkey next to, uh, to the, the, the sea, like.
6:08
And, and it allowed me to be like, "Okay, I can see a team developing, going from this, they don't know each other, they struggle, they're maybe going through a storming phase, into something that they can achieve together."
6:21
Um, and I liked that.
6:23
Um, so right after, uh, I decided to leave that NGO, I, I joined the corporate sector, which was a very, um, y- you know, it, it was a bit of an impulsive decision, but I wanted to try something new.
6:35
I wanted to go to corporate. Uh, and then I, I was placed into this global organization, fifty thousand people, uh, in, uh, global talent management, and then that was a whole other learning again.
6:48
And there were things I liked, and there were things I did not appreciate about the overall, uh, talent management role. But one of the things I really deeply liked was the, the learning piece.
6:59
Um, and that was really all about, um, that before and after, kind of learning how people learn, and I decided to go back to school while I was working.
7:10
So I did, you know, night school, uh, and, and I learned really about the brain. I learned neuroscience and, and that really gave me so much more confidence to then go into more roles, uh, there.
7:23
Because then I was like, "Okay, well, according to science, we need to do things this way."
7:27
Uh, and we will talk later today, like how I learn and, and I think truly getting deep into a topic is so, so helpful for me when I see that I wanna go deep, the, you know, become better at that.
7:39
Uh, and that allowed me to, to go into other roles. The latest one, uh, at Klarna, uh, where I, I was able to lead, uh, uh, L&D, uh, and that was an amazing playground.
7:50
We had, uh, so much authority to do different things, and that felt very refreshing.
7:57
Um, which then led me, of course, to my latest role, uh, now at Sana, and, uh, we will talk about it later, but, uh, it was a very, um, a genuine decision, uh, that I saw for many, many years to come as well.
8:11
But that's a bit of a story. Yeah. Yeah, nice. I-- So yeah, that transition from, uh, I think it was at Klarna, right? From the, uh, global talent to- Yes...
8:19
learning specifically, and also before that, becoming a leader, right? Yeah. So how, how did you manage that kind of transition from individual contributor to leader to learning? It was, it was actually-- It's...
8:37
This is a very good question because the, the first struggle was really that, and it was moving from a team that was my team, we were teammates, into me leading them.
8:47
And I felt a real imposter syndrome, actually, because I was, I was very young, and I was even leading people who were older than me, and I truly felt that I wasn't good enough, uh, actually.
8:58
Um, so I had to, again, read a lot of books, um, and, uh, and really, you know, fail often as well and, and, and just try to do my best. Um, but then later on when I felt, "Okay, what else can be done?"
9:15
I found this, this company, right? Which is where I am now, uh, Sana, and I really decided to amplify that impact, amplify the legacy that I could have. And then I basically made a math, right?
9:29
I said to myself, "Well, I can have an amazing impact inside of the organization, inside of Klarna." At the time, we were six thousand, seven thousand people, so that was awesome.
9:38
But then what if I try something where I can do that to hundreds of organizations? So that was a big decision behind it. I think, uh, um, anytime you're going from... And, and I've done the same kind of journey.
9:51
I was at IBM, four hundred thousand people, uh- [laughs]... um, of which I think the, just my team on one product line delivering training was like forty-seven people, uh- Oh, God...
10:02
uh, as trainers, plus the support staff. And going from that, my next, uh, company was a startup, two hundred people.
10:08
Uh, so it's a big mind shift, and I think we'll touch on that later on in, in the, uh, session and, and in the chat. In terms of the, uh, you mentioned imposter syndrome, uh, there. Has- Mm.
10:22
Does that creep up on you, uh, often in your career? Always. I think it's always there. It's a little voice inside of you.
10:30
Sometimes it's, uh, louder than others, uh, but I would say it, it's definitely always there and it... But also, at the same time, it helps me to, to become better, right?
10:40
To never be fully happy with the status quo, if that makes sense. I have come to terms to, you know, being able to celebrate wins and, and to kind of take a step back, see where I am, what I was able to accomplish.
10:56
But, uh, I would say, uh... And I think it's cultural, I will be honest.
11:00
I think coming from a, a South European country, uh, I think it is a bit, you know, it is a very hierarchical culture, uh, to be part of, of Portugal.
11:09
I actually never worked in a Portuguese company, uh, but [laughs] I heard it's very- Maybe, maybe that's... Yes, you've got... get around it by not, not working for a Portuguese company. No, it's like Mr. This, Mrs.
11:20
That, and, uh, I just wanna treat people by their name. [laughs] I think that's, that's better. Uh, but I think that is very cultural.
11:27
Um, I have come to terms with it, as I said, and I think for me, a great way to make it, you know, less loud or, or, you know, a bit quieter is to then be so comfortable with the topic at hand.
11:40
So then go back to study and learn more about it. Right. Uh, that seems, from what we just talked about, your, your method of learning mainly is study, right?
11:50
It's, uh, formal, let me, me go read lots about it, figure it out, uh- Literally... experiment a little bit, and then actually implement it. Is that fair?
11:59
I would say so, and that's also why I've gone back to school many times.
12:04
I've taken, you know, specializations and, and, and, and, and post-graduations, things like that, because I wanted to truly be confident with that topic. I didn't wanna make assumptions.
12:15
Um, but I will tell you, um-After joining, you know, Sana, which where I am now, I've gotten much more confident with just not knowing and experimenting and also learning from others as well.
12:30
Uh, I used to be someone who was very competitive. [laughs] Uh, uh, still am, I suppose, but, but I would... [laughs] A little bit. A touch. Just a little bit. Mm, but, but I would, I would use that in the wrong way.
12:43
I, I would use that energy to, to maybe isolate and not learn from that person. And now I really genuinely just, you know, I... My only competition is, is myself, if that makes sense, right?
12:56
I really wanna, uh, ask questions and, and that's a method of, of learning more in the last t-three and a half years, and that is just genuinely follow someone that is so good at something and be like, "Okay, show me why.
13:11
How, how did you do this? How did you..." You know, we work with a lot of ex-management consultants. They do amazing presentations, and I'm like, "I could never." I was like, [laughs] "How do you do this?
13:21
How do you succinctly present information in a way that people are like, 'Yeah, that makes sense.'" I love that. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, I think, uh, I, I kinda come at it from a, a, a slightly different perspective.
13:33
Uh, uh, the management consultants is, is not an audience that I would go and engage with so much. I, my...
13:40
When I started in startups, my immediate focus was where's the geeks, send me towards the geeks, find the people who are really nerdy- Yeah... about the, the technical side of the product.
13:49
I wanna get deep and dirty into it. I was teaching the product, so I need to learn it really well. And I went and said, "I want a desk sat in amongst them, and I'm just gonna absorb from them."
13:58
So yeah, I think that-that's, that's what startup mentality is. You need to go and absorb from people. Uh, and you fi-find your little crew, and then you absorb from them- Yes... and then you broaden that crew, I think.
14:09
100%. I, I truly empathize with, with that, you know. Uh, people just become so much more comfortable with, with questions, you know? With being like, "I, I'm trying this bet."
14:21
We, we use that word a lot, you know, it's a bet. Uh, it... We're, we're trying it out, and in a month we'll see if this works out or, or not.
14:28
So we're in constant experimentation, and then the data helps us make those decisions. Um, and for me personally, it also allowed me to just be much more comfortable with I'm not always right.
14:41
Uh, and if I think I'm always right, I'm not gonna grow. Uh, so then I'm, I'm just hurting myself. I'm the only one who gets hurt in the process.
14:49
So then, you know, safe, being very safe to admit that, you know, you're stuck, experimenting a lot, and then truly documenting it as well, if that makes sense. Um- Yeah, definitely. Yeah. How do you learn?
15:03
[laughs] How do I learn? That's for another podcast episode, I think. [laughs] Uh, but, but yeah, I'm, I'm an experimenter, uh, completely. Uh, I'll, I'll sit... But, but I, I don't read. So, uh- Hmm...
15:14
I, I do have some books on the shelf over there. Yeah. [laughs] Uh, never read any of them. [laughs] So, uh- Wait a second. I do that too. Are you someone who buys books?
15:24
Um, some of them were gifted, some of them I got at conferences. Uh, I bought two of them, uh, which is the, uh, Tiago Forte, uh, Para Method. I thought I'd get really organized and, and- [laughs]...
15:36
arrange my thoughts and get everything in nice folders on my, uh, laptop and then, yeah, they just sit on the shelf and look nice. So, uh, I bought those probably five years ago. Haven't, haven't read them yet.
15:47
Yeah, I h-I have this, this, uh, behavior that I buy... I... Sometimes I buy, like, five books at once, and I love to have them.
15:54
I l-I just love to look at them, and they're there, and then one day when the time is right, I will read them. Yeah. But I have many unread books at home. [laughs] I'm the same with Udemy courses.
16:06
I think when I had access to LinkedIn Learning I would go, "Oh, I'll do that one- Yeah... that one, that one, that one." Udemy courses, I've probably got 50 Udemy courses and never paid for one.
16:13
I get them when they're free. Um, but yeah, never completed one. Maybe that's because they were free. Um, I stick books on my Kindle as g- if, if I want to... think I might want to read them, but if they're nonfiction,
16:25
not- No... not gonna be something I ever get into really. Um, anyway, uh, back to you 'cause this isn't about me, uh, this is about you- It is as well. [laughs]... and your, and your journey.
16:34
Um, so one of the things that we, we kind of, uh, uh, went past, I think, uh, probably your time at Harvard, uh, when you were doing the, the, the Harvard studying, um, I noticed on- Yes...
16:43
on your LinkedIn profile your Saving Elephants with AI project, um, and that, uh, uh, intrigued me a little bit because probably before you even started working with AI at that point, I'm not sure. 100%.
16:55
So tell me about that and what that was all about and what the outcome was. First of all, good job for finding that. [laughs] It, uh, it's something that I, I had forgotten actually. [laughs] So I was very...
17:09
I was really deeply, deeply, um, impressed by my time at, at Harvard. Uh, and I, I think I found some of the best teachers, um, that I had ever worked with a-and learned from.
17:22
Uh, and this particular subject was really about experimentation, going back to that point. So it was a studio.
17:29
The, the, the subject was called Instructional Design Studio, and by the end of it you have to prepare a, a, a real learning experience. But the teacher said, "No courses, no... not-none of those things."
17:41
And back then, Harvard, I think they still do, they had a partnership with Listenwise.
17:47
And Listenwise, it's essentially a, it's a, a edtech, uh, organization, and they basically, uh, believe that, um, if we dev- or if they developed students to listen better, they will be able to think and to write better.
18:04
So the whole s- you know, uh, element is around listening comprehension.
18:09
Uh, so basically I had to develop a, uh, um, a, uh, a syllabus for a, a, a teacher in the US, uh, to really go through a podcast, um, by, um, I think it's, uh, I forgot now, uh, NHS, something like that.
18:26
I don't rem- I don't remember now. No, it's probably something else.Um, but it was a real, a real, uh, podcast by a, uh, a newspaper.
18:37
Uh, and then they would listen that prior to the class, and then with the, basically the, the, the, the syllabus that I had prepared, the teacher to then go in and really develop these comprehension skills.
18:49
So it was going beyond, well, is it A or B, right? Are they using this technology or that technology?
18:56
But something that the teacher back then really allowed us to do, which I learned a lot from, was, okay, go beyond the basic comprehension and truly give students the questions that they can be like, "Oh, wow, that's hard.
19:11
I'm not sure if I, if I can un- understand that at, like, 12 years old," right? Uh, because this is K-12, uh, education at the time.
19:20
So my project was about a podcast, again, a news, a news podcast that would talk about saving elephants through AI. Basically, uh, as we know, elephants are poached a lot in, in, in Africa,
19:35
and some countries were using AI to, um, predict, but also to, to find where the poachers, uh, are the most. Right. Um, and then some of the questions that I prepared were very ethical as well.
19:48
They were like, "Well, do you believe then in, in, in the use of AI, uh, in, in this particular, um, context?" Or one of the questions I remember was something around the poachers actually.
19:58
It was, "Well, why do you think the poachers are doing it? Maybe they need the money." And then, and then it's like, "Oh, okay, maybe they need to feed their family, and that's why they're doing it."
20:09
Again, which absolutely I'm completely against it, but, but these are things that then can go beyond, um, just the, the obvious. Life is made of a lot of gray. It's not black and white. Definitely.
20:22
And, and I think that's a skill that even with the, the,
20:26
with AI and, and, and with the technology that we're now all, uh, presented with, we need to develop these complex thinking, uh, uh, skills and critical thinking and, and, uh, the ability to say, "Well, I may disagree with this, but I understand why that could be."
20:43
And I think that goes back to multicultural understanding as well, right? That, you know, you may not disagree with what a culture does, but, you know, they, they maybe they like it, and they- Yeah... maybe wanna do it.
20:55
Yeah, exactly. Um- You can't judge- So that's a bit of the s-... people for things they've always done, right? Now, um, if it's- Exactly...
21:00
if it's things of the norm, then, uh, uh, it's, you have to have some understanding of why it's the norm and what the, uh, outcome they're aiming for is. Exactly. So the, so the whole syllabus was really to go beyond
21:10
just a vocabulary or, or, you know, a, a, A or, A or B type of, of thinking and to really go deeper into, um, into ethics as well. Right. Yeah. Okay. It was a- Nice... very fun project. It sounds it, yeah, yeah.
21:25
So, and do you know how the AI, uh, project actually went in terms of the, the elephant- It was very successful... population?
21:34
It was very successful, and it genuinely helped, uh, the, you know, there was, uh, less, uh, poaches, uh, being reported. Uh- Right... maybe that's the wrong word, but- Yeah... but you know what I mean. Yeah.
21:44
Um, and, and I think that, uh, yeah, there's a place, there's a place for it, which also for me at the time was very, very new.
21:52
It's like, wow, I can see how technology can be used for things that are beyond a corporate use case, right? I think that was very refreshing to hear. Good. Um, let's, uh, move on to a slightly different topic now.
22:06
Um, obviously we talked about you moving through different companies, ending up at Sana. Um, what was the, uh, reason for specifically joining Sana?
22:18
What made you, obviously, I don't know if you applied for the role or if they asked you to apply for the role. Uh, how did Sana become the thing that was the, the next step in the journey of Rita? I was so skeptical.
22:30
[chuckles] First of all, I really genuinely had to think about it, like, "Do I wanna do this? It's so risky."
22:38
Um, but a bit of what happened was, was that, uh, we, we were customers of Sana actually, so we were very early, uh, customers, and we were using Sana for a very small compliance use case.
22:51
But I remember meeting some of the team and thinking to myself, "Oh my God, these are so smart people. They are incredibly nice and kind, and they really wanna shape something new in this industry of, of L&D."
23:08
And I will share something as well with you, and I think you know this already, but, and maybe some people do know, but I am very, um, critical about the L&D industry. Yeah. And I saw- Me too. You too? I know.
23:23
[chuckles] We're like-minded in that sense. Um, but I saw this as a great opportunity to shape the industry with technology as being an enabler, uh, for, for organizations.
23:36
And I think technology is so important when it comes to, to change management and, and adoption, and I saw this great product.
23:44
I saw the ability to work with other organizations, and I also saw, which was very scary, a team back then, I think it was thirty, thirty-five people.
23:52
Um, you know, it was all in or, or, you know, it w- it could go very well, or it could go very wrong. Um, and I remember even calling, you know, back then the chief of staff and like, "Are you sure?"
24:04
You know, uh, "Are you gonna survive as a company?" And, um, but I remember just every single person I met during the recruitment process, I was in awe of, um, you know, it's a mix of very talented but so humble.
24:20
And, um, and as I said to you also, I am definitely not the smartest person in the room on a daily basis. Um, but I- I can understand that when you've got Joel as the, uh, CEO, right?
24:33
My God.Genius Yes Uh, but I'm okay with it. Yeah. And I have seriously grown so much over the past three and a half years, genuinely Nice.
24:43
Yeah, it's, uh, it's, uh, I think there's, there's a similar journey in my head from obviously I- IBM, big company, lots of people, lots of resources. You focused on a, on a small part of what's going on.
24:54
Uh, I did an intermediate piece at Teradata, not very interesting, and then joined- [laughs]... a company called Tealium, and, uh, the, the same set of engineers that I talked about earlier.
25:03
Yeah, coming into the business it was two, just over 200 people. Uh, but th- I think 28 people in the UK. Uh, when I left it was 700, so there was a- Oh... decent amount of growth. Not too- Very good...
25:14
not sup- super fast growth over five years, but, um, definitely good growth there. But it was definitely the people. You find that- Mm... group of people who you know you're not the smartest in the room.
25:25
Uh, um, but you're able to absorb from the smartest people in the room, and you're able to learn from all of those people and, and, uh, th- having a group of you- not just that they're smart, but they have, uh, the EQ as well, right?
25:38
They're able to communicate effectively. Yes. They're normal people. They're not... I often, I, I mean, developers, engineers have a, a, a reputation as being head down, not talking to people. Um- [laughs]...
25:49
I think the best engineers are not like that anymore. They probably were 20, 30 years ago. But being able to have a- Exactly... a normal conversation with an engineer in standard English- [laughs]...
26:00
and then delving deep into the rabbit hole, uh, but getting explained to it in layman's terms, uh, I think- [laughs]... that k- that kind of, uh, um, relationship in, in a work environment is, is amazing for growth.
26:12
100%. Um, and, and I think it also leads to a lot of innovation as well because people are, uh, genuinely looking for new ways to do things every day.
26:26
Uh, and every week we have a little, um, a little ritual, I think you know this, but every Friday we do demos, which I'm sure a lot of tech companies probably do this, but, you know, we sit a- I haven't heard of this one, so new to me.
26:39
You haven't? Tell me about it. Oh, okay, fun. Demos is a, it's a 45-minute, uh, meeting at the end of Friday, so it's the last meeting of the day. And you- Beer in hand, hopefully. Exactly.
26:54
Beer in hand, maybe some bubbles, in my case, snacks. And then the engineers literally demo what they have worked on during the week.
27:03
And every week it could be a little small feature, and then they explain, "Well, this partner," or, you know, "We saw that this was an issue that we had," or they demo literally the next AI tutor, you know?
27:16
And then I'm always like, "Oh my God," like they are 10 steps ahead. Um- I need an invite to that meeting. I think that would be very cool to see. Yes, please. Fly on the wall there.
27:26
[laughs] You can join from the London office. We-- It's, it's a global meeting. Oh, cool. I'll have to be, make sure I'm up in London on a Friday.
27:34
[laughs] So, so talking about the, the environment, moving to Sana, I think, um, obviously one of the things I'd love to know is, uh, what the learning culture at Sana is for the staff. Obviously, I know it as a product.
27:46
I've used it a lot. I'm very aware of the team and how, how the business is done.
27:50
How, how is the learning culture from a perspective of someone comes into the company, needs to ramp up, needs to do the compliance and onboarding, all that boring stuff, but also needs to understand what the, what the company does and how they're, they fit into that journey of the company?
28:05
How, how does that work at Sana? Mm-hmm. It's a very practical experience. So
28:10
you join and, uh, you, over the span of maybe two weeks, you are presented with different sessions, and this can be done by Joel, uh, by, uh, every, you know, uh, function, uh, lead, uh, in this case.
28:24
Uh, but then you are expected to start contributing from literally, like the second week. Um, and how you do that is, at least in, in my team, so we do customer success and engagement.
28:37
First of all, you have to shadow a bunch, and by a bunch I mean you have to shadow, like, 20 calls with re- like real calls, and then you have to send feedback to the person who is hosting the call, even if that person has been at Sana for five years.
28:52
I get feedback on the calls that people man- you know, shadow me, and I- That's great... I think that's so humbling, someone coming from, with a fresh perspective like, "Well, Rita, why did you say it in that way?"
29:02
Um, I love it. And then you have to be shadowed 20 times, and then you get this much feedback, [laughs] uh, s- which is, for us, something that we care a lot about.
29:14
Um, it's something that immediately puts people on, on an equal basis and, and it just cares that... it, it shows that we care about you.
29:22
We care so much that we have, we literally take half an hour to draw all of these tips and tricks for the future.
29:30
Um, and I think that, um, maybe a bit more raising the gaze, you know, we have this say internally that we want to build a place where people want to do their life's work. And what that means for us is
29:45
you will never know what's gonna come your way, right? There will be many moments where you will question yourself or you will question, uh, you know, the future. A lot of uncertainty.
29:57
But doing your life's work means that you truly, deeply care about doing everything that it takes
30:04
to get that craft and to take yourself into that meaningful, uh, you know, that meaningful place with a lot of meaningful problems.
30:14
So we really, we, we usually say, and I do interviews of new candidates lit- literally daily, and I usually say, "Oh, Rita, how is this to, to be at Sana?"
30:23
And I usually say, "Well, something I ask of you is that you believe that you are a founder of Sana, not an employee." And that means, you know, no ceiling, means you can grow wherever you, you wanna grow.
30:37
And that prioritizes curiosity, as I said, feedback, um, and radical candor as well, right? So weWe, we don't, uh, cut corners to saying what has to be said, uh, kindly of course, and, and with respect.
30:53
But I think really something that I absolutely love, and I had to do it for myself too, is developing this craft. Uh, and the craft is,
31:02
um, looking into the cathedral as the long-term goal that you have, but knowing that for you to build the cathedral, you need to build the bricks. And the bricks is the day-to-day.
31:16
It's things that maybe it's a bit boring to do, right? It's the things that maybe, uh, you, you wanna automate or you wanna do better, right? So, so believing that it takes a lot of bricks to get to, to that cathedral.
31:30
Um, and people become genuinely passionate about the craft. What is my craft, right? What is the thing that I wanna become the best in the world at?
31:39
Which obviously it's a big, hairy, audacious goal, but, uh, nonetheless. Um- Yeah. We all, we all have dreams and, uh, uh, yeah. Yes. Yeah. And- That's, that's all you have to chase, right? Exactly.
31:50
And this means that, you know, we... Being a founder means that you, you have to be very humble. You need to accept feedback. Uh, questions are a survival, right?
32:01
If you go to your little corner and try to fix a problem by yourself and then you fail, what's the point? Bring people along, right?
32:11
Uh, and they will give you feedback, and they will help you answer some of those questions. Um, and then as I said, like, this idea that, um, it's, uh, experimentation leads to learning through data.
32:26
Uh, so yeah, they are small, they are fast. You learn fast, you fail fast. Uh- I was just about to say, yeah, that, that's the, the fail fast part that, uh, it- Fail fast... it's always...
32:36
It's, it might feel hard, but yeah, if you're gonna fail, don't, don't spend six weeks hiding the fact that you've failed. Can't figure it out, uh, ask, ask people for help- Exactly...
32:46
and then make a decision that it's, uh, yeah, just not gonna happen. I'm not- No... gonna be able to get past that, but learn from it, then move on to the next iteration, if you like. Exactly.
32:55
A- and, and just go beyond yourself as well, because that's just going to help you and, and the rest of the organization move. I have an example.
33:03
One of my new joiners recently, she found that one of our onboarding courses was missing, uh, specific information. She could have told me, she could have said, "Rita, this is up- not updated."
33:14
But she actually said, "Rita, can you give me edit access so I change it?" And I'm like- Perfect... "Yes. Oh my God, I love you. Let's go." [laughs] Yeah. Own it. Yeah.
33:23
Own it, execute the plan, and you'll be better off tomorrow. Yeah. You'll be a better person tomorrow. Yeah, my motto is always, "Don't ask for permission." So- Apologize. Yeah.
33:33
I get, I get it done, and if it wasn't the right thing, well, we've all learnt from that at some point along the way, and I think that's, that's the whole, whole learning in a nutshell, isn't it? Yeah.
33:40
Is learn fast, fail fast, uh, don't ask permission, do what you need to do, and then see what happens, and, uh, uh, the experimental mindset. Mm. And, and something that I often say, maybe...
33:51
And I think this is quite learning related actually, now that I think about it.
33:56
Uh, sometimes people, uh, and people coming from very, you know, structured environments, they come and they ask, "What's the career framework?" And all of those things. And we have a document, [laughs] and that's it.
34:10
That's as far as it goes. At least for... I mean, things will develop obviously, but i- it's something that we're, we're very, we're, we're somewhat flexible, uh, about. Um, but I think that, um,
34:23
uh, what I always say is, uh, yeah, go beyond your job description, right? And, and you, you know, if you solve problems, you will grow.
34:34
And one more thing is that we're always talking about, you know, the, the functional. Like, okay, you work in marketing, you work in data, you work in engineering. That's very important.
34:44
You need to be able to code really well and whatever, right? But something that I think it's equally important for us as well is then the values part of that, the, the personality part of that.
34:57
Like, are you bringing joy to the people around you, right? And I think that's also a different type of learning. It's a, you know, more, uh, uh, uh, soft, uh, i- i- in that sense.
35:09
Like, d- be who you wanna be in six months, be it now. Be it now, you'll get the feedback, and then you're gonna, you're gonna get there. And I think that's very important. Like, don't wait. Yeah. Be, be human.
35:24
Be, be yourself, uh, uh, and let, let everybody see that. I think, uh, I, uh, had a conversation or there was a comment on LinkedIn yesterday about we all, we all sit behind a mask, and I think that's- Yeah...
35:35
we, we have to try and remove those masks and that we do it even more 'cause, like, all you're seeing is this much of people, uh, still.
35:42
Uh, it's great that you guys have an office and you have lots of people in the office. I know the, the Sana mentality is people working in an office. Um- Mm-hmm...
35:49
while, while working as a remote worker for the past 22 years, probably that doesn't align with me. Um, but I think, uh, I always value the ability to go and sit with people and interact with people and, and be me.
36:02
Um, and yeah, don't, don't look at your job title and go, "This is my job." [laughs] I am, my last job, director of academy. Uh, I, I was
36:12
doing the stationery and letting people in the door and, yeah, you do whatever needs to be done to keep the- Yeah...
36:17
the business running and, and to, to keep people doing what, what they need to do to make the business successful, so. It's like, "This is not my problem." No. Yeah. That, that cannot fly.
36:27
I mean, our CTO, he, he was, uh, he was literally an engineer. He started as an engineer. And I think our VP Operations posted recently that some of the people who contributed to Sana the most, Sana was their first job.
36:40
Right. Yeah. She's beautiful. It doesn't surprise me when, when I, I meet the Sana team and I feel very, very old. Uh- [laughs] No. [laughs] Like, oh- Yep.
36:49
I feel so- I have childrenI have children who are older than you, some of you. [laughs] Yes. Um, but that happens as, as you get older in life. But yeah, uh, in... Funny story, I'll, I'll cover it here.
36:59
We'll see if it stays in. Um, but, uh, yeah, one of my previous roles, I went in as a, a technical trainer, so I was delivering training, but the company had four conferences every year. One of my...
37:10
The first time I, I turned up, um, I was just sitting there to watch, but we're in the big meeting room. Yeah. Uh, 700 people, I think. Uh, big stage at the front, and we... At the Hard Rock Hotel in San Diego.
37:24
And every 30 seconds there was a massive bang because the doors to the room couldn't shut quietly. So two of us, two newbies, we were both, like, in our first conference.
37:36
We basically just got up quietly, moved to the back of the room and stood there catching the door, and that was our job for the rest of the day. Yeah. Uh, uh, just because we knew it needed doing.
37:45
Somebody needed to do it. We didn't have a role in there. We could still listen. It just needed to be done. So yeah, don't, don't be afraid to go do what needs to be done.
37:53
Uh, nobody's gonna look down on you for being the doorman for a few hours if it makes the experience for everybody else better. I love that. That's such a good example. Y- you took ownership. Yeah.
38:03
Uh, and then you, yeah, and then you solved it. I- Yeah... I really love that. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's- I hope it wasn't too cold.
38:10
[laughs] Uh, no, luckily it was just a door to the, the out- the where the food and coffee was, so we could smell the coffee and we could smell the food, but we couldn't go and eat it, unfortunately.
38:18
So at that, that point, yeah. [laughs] Okay. Um, l- let's move on. I think we've gone through quite a lot of stuff a- around Sana. Um, back to you. Uh, and people don't like talking about themselves too much.
38:29
Um, but right now, what are, what are you curious about? What, what is- Mm... outside of the work side, and, and I'm, I'm learning s- still may be part of that.
38:39
Outside of kind of work topics, what, what are you curious about? What are you learning about? Um, what are you trying to figure out, uh, to a, a deeper level? Mm. Good question.
38:49
Um, I would say it's, it's always a self-discovery. I'm very introspect, uh, introspective, right? And I'm, I'm always, uh, and you will know that, uh, later on 'cause I know you're gonna ask me about some books.
39:00
[laughs] But, um, I think, um, I, I genuinely, you know, going through things in life and like, well, what is the person that I wanna be?
39:11
I think that's a constant search for, for meaning and for being the best person I can be. But I also have, maybe to answer the question a bit more concretely, I actually have a, a New Year's resolution.
39:23
Ah, I mean, it's, it's not a very concrete one. It's not like, okay, every day this. No, no, no. I c- could never keep it up. Um, but I actually wanna develop, um, myself as a chess player. Oh, okay. I, I like it.
39:39
I, I've, I've played for, uh, maybe a few years. Uh, I wasn't lucky to learn it when I was a child or anything like that. I wish I was. I think it, it develops a lot of skills for you.
39:50
Uh, but I, I learned it as an adult and I, I realized that, uh, it's probably the rabbit hole lat- lately that I've been, I've been on. Um, especially two things. One is the emotional element of chess, right?
40:06
That you have to truly think deeply, and you need silence, and you need... It's okay if it takes you five minutes to, to go to the next, uh, to, to, you know, to take the, yeah, the pawn or whatever further.
40:21
Um, and people respect that, which I think is great. It's like a lot of, um, slow thinking, if that makes sense.
40:28
But I would say the other one is, um, something that I also wanna take with you in, in my life and I wanna become better at, and it's seeing how an action can have consequences in five steps further, right?
40:43
So not always, always, only thinking about the immediate consequence of that. So that's my latest thing. It's really, you know...
40:49
I'm, I'm thankful that my partner actually plays chess so he can play with me and teach me. He's very patient. Uh, but I'm very intellectually curious about that lately. I wanna become much better at it. Nice.
41:01
Well, Joel probably has, uh, Garry Kasparov's number, doesn't he? Oh my God, yeah, we met him, uh, at, uh, the summit last year. Uh- Yeah... and we actually have, uh, chess, uh, boards around the office as well.
41:13
Uh, but I'm like, "No, I'm so afraid to play with, like, all these smart people." [laughs] But, uh, but, but yes, it's something that, um, that I'm, I'm doing. Do, do you play, do you play chess?
41:23
Uh, not for a very long time. I, I have a vague recollection of being at the chess club when I was six or seven. Um, my dad, my dad used to play ch- chess, uh, to some extent- Wow...
41:34
and played the violin, but I n- I never really got into any of that stuff. I was more a sports activity, running around, jumping over things. That was my specialty, jumping over, uh, uh, high jump bars.
41:44
That was what I focused on. So yeah, much more physical. Um, mentally, I, I... my brain doesn't stay calm and quiet enough for that length of time to be able to play a decent game of chess.
41:55
It's a, it's a true, it's a true problem- Yeah... that we're all going through. Yeah. Yeah, I had that even when I was six or seven, so.
42:02
[laughs] Uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's not a modern problem for me, but, uh- [laughs]... it's, it's not a problem for me. It's just the way that my, my brain works, so always thinking about lots of other things going on.
42:12
Um, okay, so I think we kinda covered this, but, uh, uh, I'm looking at my questions on here. Um, you mentioned, uh, uh, slow, slow learning, slow- Yes... yeah, slow thinking.
42:24
Um, tell me more about your, your method for slow thinking. I will say that I have to put much more effort into this. I realized that it was something that I am, I am not the best at. However, I try my best at, uh,
42:42
being bullish about my time as well and allow me, allow me to, to do that. But I think, and, and I think this goes back a bit to what we were talking about.
42:52
I love reading, and I deeply love being alone with a new topic.And reading is probably the closest I've been to that deep, slow thinking because it, it's me, it's, uh, it's me, myself, no, you know, interruptions, and I can maybe spend, you know,
43:15
20 minutes on one page, or I can, you know, uh, d- do it faster. I think it is my own, uh... No one is telling me how fast I have to do it. Like, I can do it at my own pace.
43:27
And one thing about that, because it's so slow, it allows you to almost have a visual thinking as well, and I'm very visual in that regard. I, I, I, I, I remember streets. I remember I, w- I did my...
43:42
I told you I lived in Hungary, and I recently went back to the school that I spent a month in, and I'm not even kidding, I found the school by going through the streets.
43:53
I had no Google Maps with me because I didn't remember the name of the school. Muscle memory. And I f- and I found it. Now, I seriously, it's something...
43:59
Anyway, uh, moving ahead of that, but, um, but I think that's something that for me is like, uh, it- it's probably the closest I've, I've been to, to slow thinking and to really calming, calming it down.
44:13
I've tried doing other things that would allow me to think better, uh, like meditation and things of that sort, but I wouldn't say I was so successful at it.
44:24
Um, it kinda takes us onto the next, uh, uh, piece and, and which is, um, we, we can't have a conversation, uh, between us without talking about AI. Of course.
44:34
Um, so I mean, we're, we're both embedded in that world, uh, AI and learning, AI generally, we're all experimenting with these things. Yeah. Um, but obviously the crucial part of AI is the human element. Um- Yeah...
44:47
so in, in a world where everybody, and I s- I sound like AI there 'cause that's- [laughs]... a typical AI trope.
44:54
Um, in a world where AI is taking over, um, what's, what's the, um, human skill that you're pr- fiercely protecting from AI?
45:04
What is the thing that, that says, "No, I'm never gonna introduce AI into this aspect of my life"? If you would have asked me this maybe two years ago, I would have said creativity, but I deeply...
45:15
I, I've, I've gone back to the word of creativity, and actually creativity is your mind mix and matching existing information, right? That you've already had, and I think AI is kind of that too.
45:27
Um, so I, I wouldn't answer creativity anymore. I don't think AI can be perhaps, uh, creative in the same way, but it can achieve, uh, somewhat that. However,
45:40
there is one thing that I think I'm protecting, and I was even reflecting about myself, right? The, the work that I do, and I work with people every day. That's what I do.
45:51
I have, like, 12, 15 meetings a day, and I just meet with people, and I... Most of it is relationships. Most of is mo- most of that is building a partnership, is finding a win-win, and, and a lot of that is human.
46:07
And I think as long as there are, you know, humans that are employed by companies or whatever is going to be the style of work that we're gonna have in the future, you will need to have those relationships and to build a partnership.
46:23
Uh, it could be that it were in a world... And I was listening, uh, you know, Davos happened recently, right?
46:29
And I was, uh, I was actually listening to Dario Amodei from An- Anthropic, and he was also talking about, you know, what could life be in the future
46:40
if we, if work maybe becomes a little bit different and maybe how do we bring meaning into our lives? Because obviously there's this idea that if you use AI, like, what is my identity? What did I contribute, right?
46:53
There-- Some people are, are also talking about that, and it's, it's a bit of a internal thing. But for me, it's that piece. It's the relationships.
47:00
Um, and I mean, as long as there are humans, we're gonna need relationships. Definitely.
47:05
Definitely, and I, yeah, I, I see, uh, a, a lot of people are talking about similar thing, obviously, uh, learning, in the learning world, uh, in-person, uh, cohorts, in-person, getting people- Yeah...
47:17
into conferences, getting people into rooms, communities, um, moving away from the, the digital to analog- Yeah... which, uh, I think- Yeah, you're doing it this year... I posted this week. Yes.
47:27
Note- note- notebooks all over the place, and I, I even have p- this printed out- Oh... on paper with- Good, good job... with a highlighter and a real pen.
47:35
Um, uh, my notes for this because, yeah, I'm trying to move away from looking at the screen all the time, although I'm looking- Yeah... at the screen now. I'm looking at you. Um, uh- Yeah...
47:43
but yeah, I think the relationships with people are moving away from that digital, the digital demon that we've got, uh, uh- Yeah... in front of us and, and trying to have those one-to-one relationships.
47:53
So yeah, looking forward to some conferences in person this year. Uh, again, uh, I think, uh, I have one in May, which I'm looking f- very much looking forward to. My most important question, okay? Boy.
48:06
[laughs] Not the books. Um, I think we all have somebody in our life- Mm... at some point who has affected us deeply from a, a learning perspective- Mm... whether that be a teacher or a mentor or a colleague.
48:19
So, uh, who, who's your, uh, um, I don't know what the right, right an- analogy is, but who, who's the person in your, uh, life up to now who's inspired you the most from a learning perspective, taught you the most or-
48:31
Hmm. I think I have two examples. Uh, I have, uh, uh, I have more of a personal example, and I have a, a mentor, someone whom, who has mentored me, um, for, for a while now. I've been very, very fortunate.
48:47
Uh, so I would say my mom. [laughs] Nice. It's cute.
48:50
I know, but I look so much up to, uh, up to her, and I think that, um, she's constantly learning, and she's constantly adapting, and she has no ego, which is incredible. Um, meaning that-Very rare. Exactly.
49:07
And I think it allows her to, again, as I said, be this sponge of, of, of information and, um, being okay with, with not knowing and, and navigating through life, which is not always, you know, the easiest thing to navigate from.
49:25
That's, I think, one example, and I, I think on a personal level, I wanna be like that. I wanna be okay with not knowing what's gonna happen and, and just, you know, riding the wave. I would say on a, on a more
49:37
perhaps professional level, there is someone who has been a very friend, uh, of, of mine, and that was my previous manager at Klarna, actually, the one who I took over from after, uh, he left, uh, as the head of learning, and probably a mix of him and my current manager at Sana.
49:57
They gave me different things. I think my, my mentor and the person who, you know, uh, helped-- was my manager at Klarna, like he... And they probably have this both in common, like they're very pragmatic,
50:10
and they allowed me to be a bit less emotional as well and kind of think, think these, think, think about things a bit raising the gaze, right? So they taught me a lot about systems thinking, like life is a system.
50:26
Every that happen, everything that happens around you is a system. It's cyclical, right? And then how do you, um, see the flags that may allow you to get a conclusion, "This might happen"? Right.
50:41
And also to, to everything else in my job, like systems thinking is something that I try, uh, to, to get a lot from, from them. Um, but also this idea that, um, yeah, um, you know, they both come from...
50:53
Like, one of them is like a mathematician, [chuckles] and the other one is an ex-management consultant, so like very, very different- Okay... from me.
51:02
Uh, so they really allowed me to become so much more analytical, but I will say so much trust put into a person, no matter the age, uh, the background, but also deep, deep, radical, candid feedback. Okay.
51:19
Um, and I appreciate that. Don't hide it from me. Just, just allow me to understand, um, am I missing the big picture, or am I getting stuck in this, or what is it?
51:30
And I think a mix of trusting you, but then tw- like allowing you to be like, "Actually, you will hurt yourself if this is something that, you know, you take forward." And, and I, I appreciate that.
51:44
Don't be afraid to give me the feedback and, and give me the trust to then execute it as well. Uh, and I think both of them have helped me a lot, for sure. I've been, I've been a lo- around many smart people. Yeah.
51:57
I've been very lucky in that sense. Yeah. I think, uh, uh, yeah, I can remember many good leaders in my past and, uh, you, you remember the great ones, and you remember the really bad ones and, uh- Yeah, I had some...
52:07
uh, you always... Yes. So all we can do is aspire to be like the great ones and not like the bad ones- Yeah... uh, along the way, so, uh, very cool. [chuckles] Um,
52:17
okay, so some reflections, uh, before we wrap up with a couple of quick fire, uh, pieces. Um, what's your biggest failure that you wanna, that, that you're happy sharing with people? Oof.
52:30
'Cause we wanna keep our failures internally sometimes. What, what did you fail at that, uh, you feel comfortable sharing that actually you learned the most from? Yeah, so- Yeah, go for it...
52:39
I, I'm always careful- Yeah... about answering failures because there's the immediate feeling a failure makes you feel, and then there's like the, the thing you look back and it's like, "Yeah, that made sense."
52:50
Uh, and for me, I had a lot of no's, um, in, in my life, and I think those were probably failures at the time, something that I couldn't achieve.
53:00
Uh, but looking back, it, it brought me where, where I am, uh, where I am today. Uh, so probably that's as far as I'll go. [laughs] Okay, so we're almost at time, so, uh, I had a couple of quick fire questions.
53:15
So which book or podcast has, has- I have two... had the biggest lasting impact for you? Of course I cannot stay only with one. [laughs] I, I'm not good of- Okay. [laughs] I'm not good at following instructions clearly.
53:26
[laughs] Well, if I have to push you. [laughs] One is one that I've read, uh, when I was a young adult, and that's Metamorphosis by Kafka, and it was something that at the time was very scary, but it was deeper, right?
53:40
There's a deeper meaning to that. It's amazing. So that sounds very deep. It's basically someone wakes up- I can't say I've read it, but it sounds very deep... and, uh, they're an animal.
53:46
And anyway, uh, but there's a deeper meaning around, uh, you know, self-reflection and, and how do you see yourself versus, versus others as well. It is very powerful.
53:56
But the other one that is a bit more recent, and I appreciated reading it, was this Factfulness by Hans Rosling.
54:03
So unfortunately, he, he passed, uh, but he was an analyst in Sweden, and he basically shows you that the world is not that bad as we may think, and he shows it with data.
54:16
It's like, actually, this is how long we've come since the '80s- Right... on this particular, you know, disease or whatever, and I really love that one. Uh, I probably should read it again 'cause it's very positive.
54:28
That's a... Yeah. Oh my God. Definitely a good mindset to have, particularly in the, the current climate, uh, where maybe we don't think that that is the case, but we won't get into the, the politics of that.
54:38
Um, I do wanna say- Thank you... thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much for your honesty. Uh, uh, it's been a fantastic conversation.
54:45
Before we finish, uh, give me one word or one phrase to describe the future of learning in your mind. This was a hard one for me. I was gonna say metamorphosis as well. [laughs] No, but I think, I think it's, uh, um,
55:01
evolution. Yeah, and I think that's because- I could agree with that... it's probably a disruption, but that's a bit more negative.
55:08
So I think evolution is, is more positive, and it highlights the, some hard decisions that we have to make to make learning as relevant as possible in the future.
55:21
Rita, thank you so much for being my first guinea pig and sharing your story. It's been a pleasure. Rita's final word was evolution. That's exactly what we're tracking here. I'm Mark Dearlove.
55:31
This has been The Learning Stack. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you in the next one. [outro music]
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